Why most probably don't see wolves as much of a public safety problem

[idahohuntr]

I think what Wolfbait has said is that he has MANY eye witness accounts and interviews, however he does not have pictures or video footage. With out that there is no way to move forward legally. That does not mean he doesn't have evidence, just not enough to drag WDFW into court.

We need CREDIBLE evidence. 

Not "some green truck was parked on a road and the tv repair guy saw a dog-like track near it and then 3 weeks later a wdfw truck was parked there and the Schwans man seen him and he seemed nervous and then a black helicopter flew by and I forgot to where my tinfoil hat and so wdfw must have been out planting wolves again."   Do I have the story about right?  

[wolfbait]

Why is it so hard to believe that with wolves in Idaho and British Columbia, that they would eventually make their way across the border into Washington? Not to mention, we already had wolves. I saw three in the Chiwawa unit in 1990.

Here is where my BS meter goes off. "IF" wolves naturally migrated We should be seeing a lot more wolves S of I 90 much quicker than we have. We know that wolves packers were in the Psyden unit in the 90's about the same time wolves were reintroduced into ID and YNP. Wolves have moved West a whole lot quicker than they have moved south in the cascades in the same time frame? Why would that be? To me this defies common sense, and have yet to hear a good argument why.

I don't believe there's "enough" wolves in that country to force some to move out and continue moving south of I-90.
They'll get there, and when they do...we'll know it. People have been seeing them in the GMU's south of I-90 here and there. They're not going to show up and call a party to announce their presence.
 

"I don't believe there's "enough" wolves in that country to force some to move out and continue moving south of I-90."

With the way WDFW wolves "migrate" wouldn't you think their wolves would have "migrated" south of I-90 at the same rate as they "migrated" into cattle country? Do you think wolves expand or do they just migrate to certain areas with cattle? Do you think wolves would expanded through several thousand acres of prime elk, deer etc. habitat to settle just a few miles outside of Twisp WA?

 So jack, now you are going with expanding wolves, not "migrating" wolves? Can you have it both ways to fit an agenda. I guess it depends on what time of day it is.

[jackelope]

I don't know what you mean by WDFW wolves and the way they migrate? Please explain to me how new packs form and how/why wolves move to new home ranges...

As I understand it....a new pack forms when members of a pack get the boot. They then move to a new home range and form a new pack. East, south, north, west....dunno... How did the pack end up in the Teanaway? Wasn't it the collared female from your neighborhood that ended up down there?

Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess maybe after I reread your post a couple times I now know what you are inferring when you say "migrate" using the quotes around "migrate". As nobody can show that that actually happened yet, 5 years later... I'm still going with my translation of the word "migrate" in quotes as meaning...they walked their on their own 4 legs. Some people can't figure out how they got across the border into the US from Canada...you know, with border patrol and all...or how they got across the state line from Idaho. Still going with the fact that they walked.
 

[wolfbait]

I don't know what you mean by WDFW wolves and the way they migrate? Please explain to me how new packs form and how/why wolves move to new home ranges...

As I understand it....a new pack forms when members of a pack get the boot. They then move to a new home range and form a new pack. East, south, north, west....dunno... How did the pack end up in the Teanaway? Wasn't it the collared female from your neighborhood that ended up down there?

Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess maybe after I reread your post a couple times I now know what you are inferring when you say "migrate" using the quotes around "migrate". As nobody can show that that actually happened yet, 5 years later... I'm still going with my translation of the word "migrate" in quotes as meaning...they walked their on their own 4 legs. Some people can't figure out how they got across the border into the US from Canada...you know, with border patrol and all...or how they got across the state line from Idaho. Still going with the fact that they walked.

If it will help you jack, I can take out the quotes around migration :roll eyes:

Why did the USFWS have to build kennels to keep wolves in for months before releasing them into the Yellowstone and Idaho? Why did a Canadian wildlife agents say that many of the wolves that the USFWS transported from Canada to release in Idaho and the Yellowstone returned to their home range where they had been trapped wearing collars?


 Because wolves will just head back home when they are released away from home.  Back in 2003 a WA state highway employee who had just retired,  said WDFW took all of the road kill they could find and dumped it up past Mazama for some new wolves they were feeding, trying to get them to stay.

Wolves don't migrate Jack, they expand, this is another area where the fat hits the fire with the lack of honesty from the USFWS and WDFW and migrating wolves. This is what you wrote above>>"I don't believe there's "enough" wolves in that country to force some to move out and continue moving south of I-90.".  With your very own statement you suggest that wolves expand not migrate to another state. I'm sure wolves cross back and forth across state/federal lines the same as other wildlife, thats a given. For WDFW to suggest that wolves traveled through thousands of acres of excellent  prey base to settle in cattle country, only makes WDFW more of a joke then they already are. But then you already know this.  What time is it Jack?

[jackelope]

Wolves don't migrate Jack

I never used the term "migrate". I used "move". Very generic.
expand/migrate/move/relocate Call it what you want. You didn't answer my question.

Please explain to me how new packs form and how/why wolves move(migrate/relocate/expand) to new home ranges...

[wolfbait]

Wolves don't migrate Jack

I never used the term "migrate". I used "move". Very generic.
expand/migrate/move/relocate Call it what you want. You didn't answer my question.

Please explain to me how new packs form and how/why wolves move(migrate/relocate/expand) to new home ranges...

Actually Jack there isn't just one answers to your question. There's WDFW's insta-pack which is to load a pair of collared mating wolves in the back of a pickup truck and dump them somewhere in WA,  And then there is WDFW's pup drop, which only requires one wolf to be collared.  There is the relocate phase, which entitles relocating wolf/wolves from one pack to another, that way they can exclaim in shock "look how far a female from the lookout pack traveled, how in the world did she find the Teanaway pack" followed by more shock. There is The Ed Bangs way, drop a bunch of wolves off where wolves haven't ate their way to yet, speeding up the dispersal. And last but not least there is Scott Fitkin's favorite The wolves have NATURALLY MIGRATED, which include all of the above. 

Then there is the simple wolf way, when wolf pups grow older they disperse with other pups from other packs and form new packs. In all cases WDFW ignore these wolves until the wolves are bad wolves and kill someones livestock or dogs. Then WDFW leap to their feet and race to the scene sometimes days later, they arrive to tell the owner it is too late to tell what killed it as " there was nothing left but a pile of maggots", or if the USFWS is with them they will go with "just hide and hip bones left", something defiantly killed it but not wolves.

Mean while the trail cam on the cow is tripping out a different story all together.

[idahohuntr]

There's WDFW's insta-pack which is to load a pair of collared mating wolves in the back of a pickup truck and dump them somewhere in WA,  And then there is WDFW's pup drop, which only requires one wolf to be collared.  There is the relocate phase, which entitles relocating wolf/wolves from one pack to another, that way they can exclaim in shock "look how far a female from the lookout pack traveled, how in the world did she find the Teanaway pack" followed by more shock. There is The Ed Bangs way, drop a bunch of wolves off where wolves haven't ate their way to yet, speeding up the dispersal. And last but not least there is Scott Fitkin's favorite The wolves have NATURALLY MIGRATED, which include all of the above. 

Lets see...none of this drivel you posted has a shred of credible evidence to support it.  When where and who transported wolves in a pickup? Where's the evidence of WDFW moving wolves around within Washington State?  Where is the evidence of moving wolves out to where they haven't migrated naturally because they weren't expanding rapidly enough? 

Gee...there doesn't seem to be any.  All of this massive wolf relocation and transplanting going on by WDFW and you're the only guy who knows about it...     And yet, you still can not provide any credible evidence...actually, I don't think you have even provided any evidence...credible or otherwise    

[WAcoyotehunter]

That's also the 10th time you've shared that picture.  Where is the evidence that it was a wolf kill?  The cow looks like a bag of bones.

[nwwanderer]

Moved, transplanted or just radically protected.  We have them, they are going to get into all manner of trouble and they are only going to expand.  They will eat your llama, poodle, pony, goat, horse, great dane, pot bellied pig, chickens, ducks, turkeys, alpaca, rabbit and probably your first born if it is easy.  When they have the status of a coyote  it might begin to make some sense.  The millions and millions spent on this mess that should have been spent wisely on habitat and more is just plain criminal.
Oh, by the way, have you seen many Holsteins?  Boney is an understatement and they still produce 30,000 pounds of milk.

[jackelope]

Wolves don't migrate Jack

I never used the term "migrate". I used "move". Very generic.
expand/migrate/move/relocate Call it what you want. You didn't answer my question.

Please explain to me how new packs form and how/why wolves move(migrate/relocate/expand) to new home ranges...

Actually Jack there isn't just one answers to your question. There's WDFW's insta-pack which is to load a pair of collared mating wolves in the back of a pickup truck and dump them somewhere in WA,  And then there is WDFW's pup drop, which only requires one wolf to be collared.  There is the relocate phase, which entitles relocating wolf/wolves from one pack to another, that way they can exclaim in shock "look how far a female from the lookout pack traveled, how in the world did she find the Teanaway pack" followed by more shock. There is The Ed Bangs way, drop a bunch of wolves off where wolves haven't ate their way to yet, speeding up the dispersal. And last but not least there is Scott Fitkin's favorite The wolves have NATURALLY MIGRATED, which include all of the above. 

Then there is the simple wolf way, when wolf pups grow older they disperse with other pups from other packs and form new packs. In all cases WDFW ignore these wolves until the wolves are bad wolves and kill someones livestock or dogs. Then WDFW leap to their feet and race to the scene sometimes days later, they arrive to tell the owner it is too late to tell what killed it as " there was nothing left but a pile of maggots", or if the USFWS is with them they will go with "just hide and hip bones left", something defiantly killed it but not wolves.

Mean while the trail cam on the cow is tripping out a different story all together.

http://fieldguide.mt.gov/detail_AMAJA01030.aspx

This species is not migratory but may move seasonally following migrating ungulates within its territory. Gray Wolves also disperse widely. Males in northwestern Montana can move an average of 113 km (70 miles) from their natal territory, and females 77 km (48 miles), before establishing a new territory or joining an existing pack (Boyd and Pletscher 1999). Dispersal peaks twice per year; first in January/February and second, in May/June (Boyd and Pletscher 1999). Some Gray Wolves are known to have dispersed up to 805 km (500 miles). Dispersal has been documented from Canada, Idaho and Wyoming to Montana. Montana Gray Wolves are also known to have dispersed to Canada, Idaho, and Wyoming.

It's 149 miles from Cle Elum to Twisp via roads. Less through the woods. It's much less than that from the Teanaway to Twisp. Montana seems to think that it's in the realm of possibility that a wolf could move that far. That's probably not good enough though so there must be another way that they got there I guess.

[villageidiot]

The picture of dead Holstein had a very incriminating story.  Hired man saw cow with tail up birth sack in evening.  Cow dogs go bezerk all night. Hired man heard wolves howling during night.  Next morning drove up, saw wolves on hill above cow, calf missing, cow dead, rear end eaten out.
  I think it was a coyote or Bigfoot and wolves were just watching because they are actually very sweet creatures.

[WAcoyotehunter]

That's not the story we have heard about this picture the first dozen times it was posted.

IMO, it looks like it's been dead for more than a few hours in this picture...

[idahohuntr]

The picture of dead Holstein had a very incriminating story.  Hired man saw cow with tail up birth sack in evening.  Cow dogs go bezerk all night. Hired man heard wolves howling during night.  Next morning drove up, saw wolves on hill above cow, calf missing, cow dead, rear end eaten out.
  I think it was a coyote or Bigfoot and wolves were just watching because they are actually very sweet creatures.

what's the incriminating part? Hunters, ranchers, WDFW, state legislature, defenders of Wildlife, conservation NW all these groups one thing I'm sure they can all agree on is that wolves do kill livestock occasionally.  That is why there are programs to evaluate kills and reimburse livestock producers.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk