Wash. reports new wolf pack found

[KFhunter]

 


get the right snow conditions.....

[wolfbait]

wolfbait thanks for your post, pretty well sums it up 

No wonder the pro-wolf crowd doesn't like wolf history, makes it hard for them to keep the environmentalists, USFWS and state game agencies lies a float.

The final 2 sentences of the abstract for the paper cited in your linked article:

"The independent phylogeographic history of these Coastal wolves has yet to be characterized. Their distinctiveness among North American wolf populations may warrant a reevaluation of their conservation status and management."

I'm not one to ignore data or science in peer reviewed publications in order to push my desire to de-list wolves...but I have some familiarity with mtDNA analyses, taxonomy, and evolution.  I do not believe the data presented, given numerous other facts, supports the position that wolves captured in 1995 in central canada represent some different subspecies.  From a conservation standpoint I just don't think it matters either.  I do not have a strong enough genetics background to provide a more rigorous review...but I do suspect folks are taking a lot of things out of context or not considering the numerous uncertainties inherent with evaluations like this...I doubt this Tom Remington or George Dovel are qualified to weigh in on the taxonomy of wolves.  Consider your source. 

More importantly, I want to go back to the quoted sentences I provided above.  This is hook, line, and sinker DoW material.  Do you think the author of this paper, in suggesting a re-evaluation of conservation and management of these "coastal" wolves is suggesting we ought maybe to shoot some more of them?    

Keep pushing this stuff with all the enviro groups and you may just get your wish...we will have the inland wolf management plan, which will require 15 documented bp's in E. Wa before we can even discuss de-listing...and then we will need a separate coastal wolves management plan which will be another 15bp's in W. Wa.  Maybe with enough data mining and creativity we can come up with even more subspecies in Wa and really get serious about building wolf populations.    

 

 You bring that little threat up every time there is a mention of the wolves that were in the lower 48 before the wolf introduction. How long will it be before WDFW are pulled over the carpet for their miss management of the game herds/predators? WA is at the point now that people are going to start to see a major drop in the game herds. In the Methow I expect Fitkin and crew to blame the drop on the fire, but in other parts of WA they will have to come up with a new lie.

I suppose Carter Niemeyer has been moving problem wolves around WA for WDFW instead of killing them, or are they releasing them in states that don't have wolves like he did for ID, MT, and Wyoming?

[wolfbait]

get the right snow conditions.....

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C03E3D7163EE033A25755C2A9639C946697D6CF

[boneaddict]

Alright gentleman folk.   I have been awoke from my slumber.  Keep it nice and keep it clean.   Subtle insults will get you into just as much trouble as a bold slap in your face one will .   This is a warning to all listening or partaking specifically in the wolf board at the moment.    I don't like babysitting or playing little games of "he hit me first".  There really wont be any debate.  Your priviledges will be revoked.   Thanks.



This isn't in response to any particular post, but a combination of whiney sniveling that has perforated my mailbox.

[bearpaw]

On the cougar plan...does it really make a difference?  With no hounds...changing it to your liberal seasons I don't really see it changing cougar numbers at all    I also don't see the impacts to deer you describe...in 24/7 trail cam monitoring on a bait station, I've got 1 cougar picture in a year and I literally have 20-50 deer a day coming in at times...I'm pretty sure my deer are eating the cougars 

I'm not going to question your abilities as a hunter, but we have seen 8 cougars with our own eyes this year while turkey and bear hunting with no trail cameras involved and we managed to get photos or video of 6 of them. I didn't see 8 cougars without using hounds in my first 20 years of hunting and guiding. Cougar numbers are seriously skewed!

I remember a methow rancher who's kids all shot cougars out of their yard last winter. 

Yea, I suspect cougars are far less susceptible to show up on a camera at an artificial bait station...and I know there are plenty around.  Washington is the only state I've seen cougars that weren't sitting in a tree with dogs barking below them!  But I really am shocked at how little evidence/indication of cougar predation I see...I can watch all the same bucks grow throughout the year...the fawn numbers stay pretty similar for as long as I can reliably id them...I see the same numbers of does...I would think I'd have cougars sitting right next to my blind all night waiting for easy meals... Any ideas on why I'm overrun with deer and just not seeing evidence of much cougar predation...knowing there are cougars all around?

Cougar are very secretive and rarely seen. You need to understand their habits and know where they live to find them consistently. 35 years ago it took us a week to find an adult cougar track of either sex without kittens to chase for a hunter. Seasons were reduced and cougar tags put on a draw after a few years and about 20 years ago just before the voters outlawed hounds I could find an average of about 5 adult cougar tracks per day.

Now you need to come up and ride with me this winter, I will show you at least 10 adult cougar tracks in a day. WDFW has a quota of only 2 cougar in one unit and the other units really aren't much better considering they are much larger in size. The quotas need to be doubled or tripled to try and reduce the cat numbers. I'm not even sure that would reduce the population much.

Oh I'm not doubting you that cougar numbers are high...I just can't figure out why I don't see more indication of cougar predation on the deer...but I have little experience with cougars...maybe they are harder on the nearby elk...or do they spend much time with smaller game?   

Cougar drag their kill to hidden locations where the cougar feels safe to return and eat. We find cougar killed deer often because we actively hunt cougar. Government studies (including WDFW) support the fact that 25 to 50 deer are taken annually by each cougar. If WA has 3000 or 4000 cougar the math is easy to do. I've posted links to these studies many times before so it would be redundant to post them again. Instead I'll post photos of some cougar kills we found last winter. I will be the first to complain if too many cougar are harvested, I like seeing the big cats around, but our herds and hunting opportunities pay the price when there are too many cougar. Current cougar seasons in WA are not adequate to control the cougar population, more aggressive cougar hunting seasons are badly needed. Every state around us is harvesting many more cats than WA, that might be an indication that WA cougar management is lacking.

[buglebrush]

On the cougar plan...does it really make a difference?  With no hounds...changing it to your liberal seasons I don't really see it changing cougar numbers at all    I also don't see the impacts to deer you describe...in 24/7 trail cam monitoring on a bait station, I've got 1 cougar picture in a year and I literally have 20-50 deer a day coming in at times...I'm pretty sure my deer are eating the cougars 

I'm not going to question your abilities as a hunter, but we have seen 8 cougars with our own eyes this year while turkey and bear hunting with no trail cameras involved and we managed to get photos or video of 6 of them. I didn't see 8 cougars without using hounds in my first 20 years of hunting and guiding. Cougar numbers are seriously skewed!

I remember a methow rancher who's kids all shot cougars out of their yard last winter. 

Yea, I suspect cougars are far less susceptible to show up on a camera at an artificial bait station...and I know there are plenty around.  Washington is the only state I've seen cougars that weren't sitting in a tree with dogs barking below them!  But I really am shocked at how little evidence/indication of cougar predation I see...I can watch all the same bucks grow throughout the year...the fawn numbers stay pretty similar for as long as I can reliably id them...I see the same numbers of does...I would think I'd have cougars sitting right next to my blind all night waiting for easy meals... Any ideas on why I'm overrun with deer and just not seeing evidence of much cougar predation...knowing there are cougars all around?

Cougar are very secretive and rarely seen. You need to understand their habits and know where they live to find them consistently. 35 years ago it took us a week to find an adult cougar track of either sex without kittens to chase for a hunter. Seasons were reduced and cougar tags put on a draw after a few years and about 20 years ago just before the voters outlawed hounds I could find an average of about 5 adult cougar tracks per day.

Now you need to come up and ride with me this winter, I will show you at least 10 adult cougar tracks in a day. WDFW has a quota of only 2 cougar in one unit and the other units really aren't much better considering they are much larger in size. The quotas need to be doubled or tripled to try and reduce the cat numbers. I'm not even sure that would reduce the population much.

Oh I'm not doubting you that cougar numbers are high...I just can't figure out why I don't see more indication of cougar predation on the deer...but I have little experience with cougars...maybe they are harder on the nearby elk...or do they spend much time with smaller game?   

Cougar drag their kill to hidden locations where the cougar feels safe to return and eat. We find cougar killed deer often because we actively hunt cougar. Government studies (including WDFW) support the fact that 25 to 50 deer are taken annually by each cougar. If WA has 3000 or 4000 cougar the math is easy to do. I've posted links to these studies many times before so it would be redundant to post them again. Instead I'll post photos of some cougar kills we found last winter. I will be the first to complain if too many cougar are harvested, I like seeing the big cats around, but our herds and hunting opportunities pay the price when there are too many cougar. Current cougar seasons in WA are not adequate to control the cougar population, more aggressive cougar hunting seasons are badly needed. Every state around us is harvesting many more cats than WA, that might be an indication that WA cougar management is lacking.

I am with bearpaw on this.  This state's management of predators is absolutely ridiculous!!!!   Bring back hound hunting & General season spring bear for starters!

[wolfbait]

Another thing we have seen is the USFWS's wolves drive cougars off of their kills, so they have to make another kill. Last year in the Methow many of the problem cougars killed were not wearing collars, a WDFW official said they knew of 53 cougars in the valley that were wearing collars. WDFW know there is a cougar problem,  maybe not a problem for them but for hunting sustainability, and the public it is a problem

[boneaddict]

This state's management of predators is absolutely ridiculous!!!!   

 

[idahohuntr]

Cougar drag their kill to hidden locations where the cougar feels safe to return and eat. We find cougar killed deer often because we actively hunt cougar. Government studies (including WDFW) support the fact that 25 to 50 deer are taken annually by each cougar. If WA has 3000 or 4000 cougar the math is easy to do.

Yes, I've found several fairly certain cougar kills over the years (mostly in Idaho)...but my point is I would bet if I had collars on a bunch of deer on my place 1) survival would be very high and 2)cougar caused mortality would be almost undetectable...which is not what I would expect.  Cars and fences kill far more deer around my place than cougars, which I know are present.  And I'm not arguing that cougars don't impact deer or game or anything like that...I just can't figure out why I can watch the same 30-40 deer over a year long period and usually only 2-4 "go missing" and when they do, 95% of the time I find them laying in a ditch or next to a barbed wire fence.    I guess I just can't reconcile why more cougar predation is not occurring?  Particularly when I bait these deer and unlike bucks the does are just easy pickings for any predator...which gives me an idea...if you legally bait deer, but you're using the deer to attract predators, are you also technically baiting predators? 

[bobcat]

Doesn't matter since it's legal to bait cougars.

[idahohuntr]

You bring that little threat up every time there is a mention of the wolves that were in the lower 48 before the wolf introduction. How long will it be before WDFW are pulled over the carpet for their miss management of the game herds/predators? WA is at the point now that people are going to start to see a major drop in the game herds. In the Methow I expect Fitkin and crew to blame the drop on the fire, but in other parts of WA they will have to come up with a new lie.

I suppose Carter Niemeyer has been moving problem wolves around WA for WDFW instead of killing them, or are they releasing them in states that don't have wolves like he did for ID, MT, and Wyoming?

Its not a threat...I am optimistic that the courts will reject these scientifically unsupported claims when the enviro groups bring them up...but at the same time I lived through the de-listing saga in Idaho where any blind judge should have had no problem keeping wolves de-listed.  My perception is you and many others have a set of values regarding predator management you would like to see pursued, and given wildlife are owned by the people (all the people) you have every right to pursue your predator management desires...so I am confused why you would support DoW talking points that would result in unbelievable setbacks to any kind of wolf "management".

Your last 2 sentences I quoted above is the precise thing I find most frustrating with most of the wolf talk that goes on.  We have one of the largest wildfires in WA history, which destroys/damages a huge amount of critical winter habitat...so I expect you are going to see a downturn in deer numbers in that area for the next few years.  But in 2017, folks I'm sure will be complaining about a lack of deer up there (even more than they are now!).  The fire will be a distant memory, but predators will be the sole factor blamed by many.  Hard winters are the same way...a year or two after they occur hunters seem to have amnesia and when they don't see the same number of bucks...well, it must be predators.  This is definitely the biggest disagreement I have with folks...its not that I think wolves and cougars don't kill game...but their impact to game abundance is usually less relative to large habitat related factors like a major wildfire on winter range or a very hard winter.  And things like fire and winters are large, immediate, identifiable events to humans...start thinking about slow losses of land to housing developments, forest succession that replaces productive/forage producing areas with stands of mature timber and little food...you know things that occur incrementally over long periods of time...those things don't make headlines like a picture of a wolf eating a big bull elk...but the relative magnitude of the impacts of predators vs. these landscape wide habitat changes in most instances is very skewed by many hunters. 

I am guilty of the same skewing...in an area I hunt, starting in 2010 I just was not seeing the deer I used to.  My dad thought he may have caught a glimpse of a wolf one evening in that area and so I thought that must be it...predators are reducing what was once an area with abundant deer.  And so for the last few years its been kind of the same...but this year I have just been amazed at the sheer number of quality bucks I was finding.  Thinking back...we had 2 hard winters 07/08 and 08/09 in a row...followed by 5 fairly mild (or very mild!) winters in a row.  Could it have been some predation...sure.  But the timing of decrease and rebound really supports the notion that poor winter survival occurred in 07-09, and I am now starting to see some of those nice 4.5 year old bucks that were born in 2010 and had good living for these last several years.     

[pianoman9701]

 

[idahohuntr]

Alright gentleman folk.   I have been awoke from my slumber.  Keep it nice and keep it clean.   Subtle insults will get you into just as much trouble as a bold slap in your face one will .   This is a warning to all listening or partaking specifically in the wolf board at the moment.    I don't like babysitting or playing little games of "he hit me first".  There really wont be any debate.  Your priviledges will be revoked.   Thanks.



This isn't in response to any particular post, but a combination of whiney sniveling that has perforated my mailbox.

  Wow.  I read through the last page or two and not one person has posted one thing I wouldn't say to my own mother...in a church...in front of the congregation...      

[bearpaw]

You bring that little threat up every time there is a mention of the wolves that were in the lower 48 before the wolf introduction. How long will it be before WDFW are pulled over the carpet for their miss management of the game herds/predators? WA is at the point now that people are going to start to see a major drop in the game herds. In the Methow I expect Fitkin and crew to blame the drop on the fire, but in other parts of WA they will have to come up with a new lie.

I suppose Carter Niemeyer has been moving problem wolves around WA for WDFW instead of killing them, or are they releasing them in states that don't have wolves like he did for ID, MT, and Wyoming?

Its not a threat...I am optimistic that the courts will reject these scientifically unsupported claims when the enviro groups bring them up...but at the same time I lived through the de-listing saga in Idaho where any blind judge should have had no problem keeping wolves de-listed.  My perception is you and many others have a set of values regarding predator management you would like to see pursued, and given wildlife are owned by the people (all the people) you have every right to pursue your predator management desires...so I am confused why you would support DoW talking points that would result in unbelievable setbacks to any kind of wolf "management".

Your last 2 sentences I quoted above is the precise thing I find most frustrating with most of the wolf talk that goes on.  We have one of the largest wildfires in WA history, which destroys/damages a huge amount of critical winter habitat...so I expect you are going to see a downturn in deer numbers in that area for the next few years.  But in 2017, folks I'm sure will be complaining about a lack of deer up there (even more than they are now!).  The fire will be a distant memory, but predators will be the sole factor blamed by many.  Hard winters are the same way...a year or two after they occur hunters seem to have amnesia and when they don't see the same number of bucks...well, it must be predators.  This is definitely the biggest disagreement I have with folks...its not that I think wolves and cougars don't kill game...but their impact to game abundance is usually less relative to large habitat related factors like a major wildfire on winter range or a very hard winter.  And things like fire and winters are large, immediate, identifiable events to humans...start thinking about slow losses of land to housing developments, forest succession that replaces productive/forage producing areas with stands of mature timber and little food...you know things that occur incrementally over long periods of time...those things don't make headlines like a picture of a wolf eating a big bull elk...but the relative magnitude of the impacts of predators vs. these landscape wide habitat changes in most instances is very skewed by many hunters. 

I am guilty of the same skewing...in an area I hunt, starting in 2010 I just was not seeing the deer I used to.  My dad thought he may have caught a glimpse of a wolf one evening in that area and so I thought that must be it...predators are reducing what was once an area with abundant deer.  And so for the last few years its been kind of the same...but this year I have just been amazed at the sheer number of quality bucks I was finding.  Thinking back...we had 2 hard winters 07/08 and 08/09 in a row...followed by 5 fairly mild (or very mild!) winters in a row.  Could it have been some predation...sure.  But the timing of decrease and rebound really supports the notion that poor winter survival occurred in 07-09, and I am now starting to see some of those nice 4.5 year old bucks that were born in 2010 and had good living for these last several years.     

Idaho I agree that winters/nature has the biggest impact on herd numbers. I also agree that habitat is very important, but what you seem to overlook or avoid is that a large predator population dramatically slows a herd from rebounding and can even result in a predator pit in which herds do not recover or take far longer to recover due to too much predation. This has been documented and proven.

[wolfbait]

You bring that little threat up every time there is a mention of the wolves that were in the lower 48 before the wolf introduction. How long will it be before WDFW are pulled over the carpet for their miss management of the game herds/predators? WA is at the point now that people are going to start to see a major drop in the game herds. In the Methow I expect Fitkin and crew to blame the drop on the fire, but in other parts of WA they will have to come up with a new lie.

I suppose Carter Niemeyer has been moving problem wolves around WA for WDFW instead of killing them, or are they releasing them in states that don't have wolves like he did for ID, MT, and Wyoming?

Its not a threat...I am optimistic that the courts will reject these scientifically unsupported claims when the enviro groups bring them up...but at the same time I lived through the de-listing saga in Idaho where any blind judge should have had no problem keeping wolves de-listed.  My perception is you and many others have a set of values regarding predator management you would like to see pursued, and given wildlife are owned by the people (all the people) you have every right to pursue your predator management desires...so I am confused why you would support DoW talking points that would result in unbelievable setbacks to any kind of wolf "management".

Your last 2 sentences I quoted above is the precise thing I find most frustrating with most of the wolf talk that goes on.  We have one of the largest wildfires in WA history, which destroys/damages a huge amount of critical winter habitat...so I expect you are going to see a downturn in deer numbers in that area for the next few years.  But in 2017, folks I'm sure will be complaining about a lack of deer up there (even more than they are now!).  The fire will be a distant memory, but predators will be the sole factor blamed by many.  Hard winters are the same way...a year or two after they occur hunters seem to have amnesia and when they don't see the same number of bucks...well, it must be predators.  This is definitely the biggest disagreement I have with folks...its not that I think wolves and cougars don't kill game...but their impact to game abundance is usually less relative to large habitat related factors like a major wildfire on winter range or a very hard winter.  And things like fire and winters are large, immediate, identifiable events to humans...start thinking about slow losses of land to housing developments, forest succession that replaces productive/forage producing areas with stands of mature timber and little food...you know things that occur incrementally over long periods of time...those things don't make headlines like a picture of a wolf eating a big bull elk...but the relative magnitude of the impacts of predators vs. these landscape wide habitat changes in most instances is very skewed by many hunters. 

I am guilty of the same skewing...in an area I hunt, starting in 2010 I just was not seeing the deer I used to.  My dad thought he may have caught a glimpse of a wolf one evening in that area and so I thought that must be it...predators are reducing what was once an area with abundant deer.  And so for the last few years its been kind of the same...but this year I have just been amazed at the sheer number of quality bucks I was finding.  Thinking back...we had 2 hard winters 07/08 and 08/09 in a row...followed by 5 fairly mild (or very mild!) winters in a row.  Could it have been some predation...sure.  But the timing of decrease and rebound really supports the notion that poor winter survival occurred in 07-09, and I am now starting to see some of those nice 4.5 year old bucks that were born in 2010 and had good living for these last several years.     

Idaho I agree that winters/nature has the biggest impact on herd numbers. I also agree that habitat is very important, but what you seem to overlook or avoid is that a large predator population dramatically slows a herd from rebounding and can even result in a predator pit in which herds do not recover or take far longer to recover due to too much predation. This has been documented and proven.