Wolves

[Alchase]

Over Labor day weekend my wife and I rented a cabin above Swan Lake, Montana.
In every valley, river drainage or farm in Montana were white tail deer. I was amazed!
On arrival to our cabin, I was talking to the owner about all the white tail.
I asked him if the mule deer were as plentiful.
He told me to turn around and look at the bulletin board on the back wall.
There were awesome pictures of mule deer herds, literally right outside the cabins.
He then said he had not seen a mule deer around the cabins in over seven years. All those pictures were before they allowed the return of the wolves.
He said we have a better chance of seeing wolves or Grizzly bears then seeing mule deer.
He then hands us a can of Bear Spray and says do not go hiking without it.
My wife asked him: "does the Bear Spray works for wolves as well?"
He said "Nope, Bear Spray is useless on wolves, that is what that is for" he was pointing to my XD .40 cal I was wearing.
I asked him how the elk are doing?
He replied: "The elk were the first to start disappearing, now the mule deer. Once all the mule deer and elk are gone the wolves will have to move down into the valleys and towns to get to the white tail. Once that happens the loony toons that wanted the da$% things will start screaming. By then it will be to late".
He was right, we saw no mule deer the whole trip.

[sirmissalot]

We just got back from a trip through Yellowstone. I was pretty jacked up to go through there in late September hoping to see some screaming Bulls, but that certainly wasn't the case. We saw on lone cow, then 3 cows and a calf in the park. The only elk we saw in numbers were literally in town in mammoth, where I saw an awesome bull chasing cows through the parking lot. We never saw a mule deer buck but saw a group of probably ten does in town. We went through the park at prime time both in evening and in the morning, as we stayed the night inside he park.

It was pretty interesting stopping in Gardiner on the way out. I walked into a store called ELK Inc, a company that's been around for a long time, it's one of the first books I had as a kid about hunting and the first deer and elk calls I had. The owner of the business was a cool old guy, talked for a long time to me about the good old days of hunting, and how bad the wolves have made it. I know guys like idahohunter think people make this stuff up, but to see a place like Gardiner, what used to be truly an elk Mecca, completely void of elk other than the ones stuck in town, on people's front lawns because apparently the wolves have enough fear of man they have yet to learn to hunt there. It's pretty dang sad.

[idahohuntr]

We just got back from a trip through Yellowstone. I was pretty jacked up to go through there in late September hoping to see some screaming Bulls, but that certainly wasn't the case. We saw on lone cow, then 3 cows and a calf in the park. The only elk we saw in numbers were literally in town in mammoth, where I saw an awesome bull chasing cows through the parking lot. We never saw a mule deer buck but saw a group of probably ten does in town. We went through the park at prime time both in evening and in the morning, as we stayed the night inside he park.

It was pretty interesting stopping in Gardiner on the way out. I walked into a store called ELK Inc, a company that's been around for a long time, it's one of the first books I had as a kid about hunting and the first deer and elk calls I had. The owner of the business was a cool old guy, talked for a long time to me about the good old days of hunting, and how bad the wolves have made it. I know guys like idahohunter think people make this stuff up, but to see a place like Gardiner, what used to be truly an elk Mecca, completely void of elk other than the ones stuck in town, on people's front lawns because apparently the wolves have enough fear of man they have yet to learn to hunt there. It's pretty dang sad.

Thats one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen on this forum. 

[sirmissalot]

You would say that

[sirmissalot]

We were checked by a park ranger and I asked where we could find some elk. He said before the wolves they had over 20,000 head. Now they have around 5,000. I know I'm pretty ignorant, but those numbers are pretty astonishing to me. The old man at ELK inc gave me even more disturbing numbers but I'll trust the park rangers numbers over his.

[bradslam]

We just got back from a trip through Yellowstone. I was pretty jacked up to go through there in late September hoping to see some screaming Bulls, but that certainly wasn't the case. We saw on lone cow, then 3 cows and a calf in the park. The only elk we saw in numbers were literally in town in mammoth, where I saw an awesome bull chasing cows through the parking lot. We never saw a mule deer buck but saw a group of probably ten does in town. We went through the park at prime time both in evening and in the morning, as we stayed the night inside he park.

It was pretty interesting stopping in Gardiner on the way out. I walked into a store called ELK Inc, a company that's been around for a long time, it's one of the first books I had as a kid about hunting and the first deer and elk calls I had. The owner of the business was a cool old guy, talked for a long time to me about the good old days of hunting, and how bad the wolves have made it. I know guys like idahohunter think people make this stuff up, but to see a place like Gardiner, what used to be truly an elk Mecca, completely void of elk other than the ones stuck in town, on people's front lawns because apparently the wolves have enough fear of man they have yet to learn to hunt there. It's pretty dang sad.

Not completely disagreeing with what you are saying Chad, as elk numbers are definitely down substantially in Yellowstone, but I do think their habits have changed.  From what rangers have told me and from what I have observed, they are hanging out more in timbered areas to avoid the wolves so they are less visible.  I do miss the days of seeing rutting bulls everywhere.  One evening, while my wife and I were on our one-year anniversary trip back in September of '98, we stopped at an overlook above Antelope Valley which is closed to human entry.  We could see hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of elk from where we stood.  We could see multiple battles going on at the same time and there was more bugling than I have ever heard in my life.  It was incredible.  I was in Yellowstone earlier this year and we saw a fair number of elk, but I think moments like what I experienced in '98 are gone forever.

[KFhunter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dYxGJB5dJxI

[KFhunter]

We just got back from a trip through Yellowstone. I was pretty jacked up to go through there in late September hoping to see some screaming Bulls, but that certainly wasn't the case. We saw on lone cow, then 3 cows and a calf in the park. The only elk we saw in numbers were literally in town in mammoth, where I saw an awesome bull chasing cows through the parking lot. We never saw a mule deer buck but saw a group of probably ten does in town. We went through the park at prime time both in evening and in the morning, as we stayed the night inside he park.

It was pretty interesting stopping in Gardiner on the way out. I walked into a store called ELK Inc, a company that's been around for a long time, it's one of the first books I had as a kid about hunting and the first deer and elk calls I had. The owner of the business was a cool old guy, talked for a long time to me about the good old days of hunting, and how bad the wolves have made it. I know guys like idahohunter think people make this stuff up, but to see a place like Gardiner, what used to be truly an elk Mecca, completely void of elk other than the ones stuck in town, on people's front lawns because apparently the wolves have enough fear of man they have yet to learn to hunt there. It's pretty dang sad.

http://www.ktvq.com/news/gardiner-elk-hunt-falls-victim-to-wolves/

[sirmissalot]

We just got back from a trip through Yellowstone. I was pretty jacked up to go through there in late September hoping to see some screaming Bulls, but that certainly wasn't the case. We saw on lone cow, then 3 cows and a calf in the park. The only elk we saw in numbers were literally in town in mammoth, where I saw an awesome bull chasing cows through the parking lot. We never saw a mule deer buck but saw a group of probably ten does in town. We went through the park at prime time both in evening and in the morning, as we stayed the night inside he park.

It was pretty interesting stopping in Gardiner on the way out. I walked into a store called ELK Inc, a company that's been around for a long time, it's one of the first books I had as a kid about hunting and the first deer and elk calls I had. The owner of the business was a cool old guy, talked for a long time to me about the good old days of hunting, and how bad the wolves have made it. I know guys like idahohunter think people make this stuff up, but to see a place like Gardiner, what used to be truly an elk Mecca, completely void of elk other than the ones stuck in town, on people's front lawns because apparently the wolves have enough fear of man they have yet to learn to hunt there. It's pretty dang sad.

Not completely disagreeing with what you are saying Chad, as elk numbers are definitely down substantially in Yellowstone, but I do think their habits have changed.  From what rangers have told me and from what I have observed, they are hanging out more in timbered areas to avoid the wolves so they are less visible.  I do miss the days of seeing rutting bulls everywhere.  One evening, while my wife and I were on our one-year anniversary trip back in September of '98, we stopped at an overlook above Antelope Valley which is closed to human entry.  We could see hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of elk from where we stood.  We could see multiple battles going on at the same time and there was more bugling than I have ever heard in my life.  It was incredible.  I was in Yellowstone earlier this year and we saw a fair number of elk, but I think moments like what I experience in '98 are gone forever.

They said the same to me, and I agree with it to an extent. But they also admitted to there being 25% of the elk herd there once was. I didn't expect to see hundreds of bulls from our trucks like we did with buffalo and antelope, but even our hikes were void of elk and deer.

[AspenBud]

We were checked by a park ranger and I asked where we could find some elk. He said before the wolves they had over 20,000 head. Now they have around 5,000. I know I'm pretty ignorant, but those numbers are pretty astonishing to me. The old man at ELK inc gave me even more disturbing numbers but I'll trust the park rangers numbers over his.

Right or wrong that was the plan from the start and not a secret. What has happened around there should not be a surprise to anyone, pro wolf or not. Those elk were going to get culled, they just turned wolves loose instead of hunters to do it.

[bradslam]

By the way, as far as deer numbers go, I've never seen a bunch of deer in the park so not seeing many deer isn't necessarily wolf related.  And yes, they made no secret that they thought there were too many elk and wanted numbers reduced.

[idahohuntr]

You would say that

Yes, because it is true.  You are putting words in my mouth, and its clear you haven't read or understood my posts, which makes no difference to me...except when you characterize what I have said in a ridiculous and absurd manner. I realize you might not know the Lolo zone from that starbucks you live by in the Seattle suburbs but please don't try and tell folks I've suggested declines in elk in specific areas are made up. 

[KFhunter]

We were checked by a park ranger and I asked where we could find some elk. He said before the wolves they had over 20,000 head. Now they have around 5,000. I know I'm pretty ignorant, but those numbers are pretty astonishing to me. The old man at ELK inc gave me even more disturbing numbers but I'll trust the park rangers numbers over his.

Right or wrong that was the plan from the start and not a secret. What has happened around there should not be a surprise to anyone, pro wolf or not. Those elk were going to get culled, they just turned wolves loose instead of hunters to do it.

"The plan" was to reduce Bison numbers and Elk numbers.  The greater focus was on Bison though.

Bison gained in population making up for the huge decline in Elk,  now they're in a quandary of what to do with the Bison.   Bison are harder on stream beds and banks and cause more erosion than Elk.

The YNP wolf plan is and always was an epic failure.

[bradslam]

I know I'm starting to sound like I'm a wolf lover (I'm not), but regarding the conspiracy theorists on this thread that think they must have been planted because suddenly they are "everywhere," there are lots of factors that come into play.  One thing that will happen is that as wolf numbers reach carrying capacity in one area, some wolves will leave their pack and travel great distances to establish their own pack. 

I never saw an opossum in Kitsap County until maybe 25 years ago, and now they are everywhere! I don't think the WDFW secretly planted them in the middle of the night when no one was looking.

[AspenBud]

We were checked by a park ranger and I asked where we could find some elk. He said before the wolves they had over 20,000 head. Now they have around 5,000. I know I'm pretty ignorant, but those numbers are pretty astonishing to me. The old man at ELK inc gave me even more disturbing numbers but I'll trust the park rangers numbers over his.

Right or wrong that was the plan from the start and not a secret. What has happened around there should not be a surprise to anyone, pro wolf or not. Those elk were going to get culled, they just turned wolves loose instead of hunters to do it.

"The plan" was to reduce Bison numbers and Elk numbers.  The greater focus was on Bison though.

Bison gained in population making up for the huge decline in Elk,  now they're in a quandary of what to do with the Bison.   Bison are harder on stream beds and banks and cause more erosion than Elk.

The YNP wolf plan is and always was an epic failure.

Some have claimed bison are suffering heavy losses from wolves there too. There are so many competing claims I have to admit I've stopped keeping track. I just know that way back when the topic I heard about was too many elk and how wolves would be an addition that could take care of the problem.

I have posted this before, I was surprised when I heard they were letting them loose outside the park. That was not the original plan as far as I knew it.