Let The Methow Herd Destruction Begin

[huntnphool]

I'm just curious how many of these people that are complaining have applied and have been drawn and filled cow tags?  I know I'll be taking my son in November to fill his doe tags.

  Apples and oranges Baze........and I've never applied for a cow tag!

[boneaddict]

Not sure what that has to do with this......

I'm just curious how many of these people that are complaining have applied and have been drawn and filled cow tags?

and if you care to know, never, though I am not against antlerless harvest in other situations

[MtnMuley]

They really issued 1000 doe tags? Where did you see the exact number? Pretty shameful by wdfg if that's the case and the success rates are high the deer herd will be in major decline for years and doubtful it will ever recover.  They might as well just close the areas affected down for no hunting! If they want to reduce some deer should have been done for youths, disabled hunters, and very limited tags. Or just feed the deer this year.

They issued 1200 through out the 3 gmu' s. That was straight out of Fitkin and Monda' s mouths at a recent meeting.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Any pictures yet 

[Mtn.Ghost]

I'd bet at least 30 per cent of hunters are unable to distinguish  a mule doe from a wt doe in the field when a shot opportunity arises

If that be the case said person shouldn't even be in the field calling them self a hunter. There are many distinct very noticeable, unmistakable differences between the two species        

[Romulus1297]

I'd bet at least 30 per cent of hunters are unable to distinguish  a mule doe from a wt doe in the field when a shot opportunity arises

That whitetail doe I saw in 25 Mile creek this morning was the first deer I saw

[muleracks]

I hope wdfw at least recommends that hunters take whitetail does; like they do with black bear (boars as much as possible).

[wolfbait]

What people don't think about is a lot of people in positions to make the rules don't really want us hunters out hunting anyways. Thry just want the woods to be a place for people to visit I guess or leave alone all together. Hence reintroduction of wolves and the over abundance of antlerless tags, also shortened seasons. Make the hunting suck and not so many hunters anymore. Also the price of tags and the new permit program, it says right on the website it was designed to increase profits which they call revenue. They almost treat the environment like a science experiment even though guys who have hunted there for 30 years and notice a giant decline in deer numbers and hunt quality say otherwise. It's like the wolves helping the Beavers and the trout, Ya right....Just my 2cents...

Each Female Killed Represents Tenfold Loss

When Commissioners and sportsmen groups repeat the biologists’ false claim that this group or that group “won’t kill enough female mule deer to impact the population,” they support the ongoing destruction of our mule deer. Every female that is killed now when populations are depleted represents at least a tenfold loss in harvest opportunity during the next decade.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2023%20April%202007%20SE%20Idaho%20Mule%20Deer%20MGMT.pdf

Woodworth joined a list of Idaho F&G Directorswho have been forced to resign because they, and/or their employees whose actions they are responsible for, ignored their legal mandate to preserve, protect, perpetuate and manage Idaho wildlife. In every instance, their willingness to kill female breeding stock – rather than feed to help them survive a crisis – was the catalyst that caused outraged citizens to demand they be replaced.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2046%20Sept-Dec%202011.pdf

I applaud those hunters who are refusing to help slaughter what's left of the Methow deer herd, probably the reason for WDFW upping the doe tags from 750 to 1200.

Funny how folks seem to think the whitetails are do well, when the wolves have been hammering them also, I guess the impact isn't as easy to identify as with the mule deer.

[buckfvr]

Maybe I don't understand, but I thought they were issuing the tags because the fires burned up the habitat and they're needing to reduce the herd so they don't starve to death. Is that not true?

yes, true...but the way I read it the concerns are specific.  Mule deer in that area have been declining.  Whitetails have been moving in and competing with them.  The guys opposed to this are opposed to further decline in muleys.  But fine with removing the whitetails.  Then the overall herd size might match the food left after the fires and muleys will at least be stable or possibly rebound.  Sounds like mules might take a hit in the doe department...where they don't need it (so whether intentional or not--further decline the muleys).  Then there is the issue of what people normally look for out there--"the big fat healthy doe" and not the smaller does.  The big does might be more likely to survive a hard winter (in whitetail land generally the bigger older deer survive better in the upper Midwest winters).  So the does left over might be the smaller ones that killed in the winter anyways.  I guess worse case scenario, all the does that get shot are big healthy mule deer that would likely make it through a bad winter; and then a bad winter strikes and kills off the less prepared mule deer does and the following season you have a greater explosion of whiteys and more decline of muleys.

After bad winters in 2007 and 2008, here locally, we are still waiting for the whitetail explosion...........doesnt happen that way.  If winter kills mulies, it also kills whitetail.......does and bucks.

The cheap wolf lovin leadership at wdfw needs to do the right thing for once, and feed the dang deer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[X-Force]

I'm thinking there are more whitetail tags than muledeer tags.  Maybe the kids have the muledeer tags, mine is a whitetail.  I don't have a problem shooting a whitetail doe!

The email I got from wdfw did not specify one specific species of deer as far as the tag. It just says second deer tag to harvest a doe. 

the original tag; youth antlerless, disabled antlerless, second deer whitetail antlerless specify which tag you drew. the email from WDFW just stated that they are all second deer tags now if the hunter wishes

[Griz231]

Everyone wants to get rid of whitetails so I am here to offer up my services and do my part. We got the second doe tags for 242 and at first didn't think if have time but I'm going to try and make it over this weekend.
Anyone have a couple pesky fat does laying around eating all the feed for those skinny mule deer? 
Gonna hit the normal low spots by our place in Methow but I haven't had time to go survey how much burned in the hills so not sure what to expect.

[Eagle_view]

I just put my flame retardant suit on so here goes.

I lived 11 years in the Methow and have hunted more years than that there.  The Mule deer herd has declined because of the development of housing in the winter range.  Whitetail have always done better in closer proximity to suburban development than Mule deer. 

We went over there and drove part of the burn area looking at what has burned.  The valley floor was pretty much intact except for washout that closed the major access roads in places ie. SR20 over the Loop and SR153  between Carlton and Twisp and Benson Creek.  The fires cover a majority of the Winter Range between Roger's Lake  and Pateros on both sides of SR153 and East of Washington Pass. Rough description.  It will take years for this area to recover and it will always be different from what it was.  I will predict that even with the additional tags we will have the highest road kill years that has ever been seen up there.  We will also issue many more orchard damage control kill permits than they ever has and we will still have a very high winter kill.

To have a healthy Mule Deer Herd you must reduce the population by 40% each year and have a buck to doe ratio of not more than 5 doe per buck.  Washington has never done this and our herds have suffered because of it.  Fawns are born in almost equal male and female ratios.  We focus our hunting pressure on the bucks only and that forces some very wasteful reproduction.  A doe will cycle in heat until bred or is too depleted by starvation to reproduce.  Buck will try to breed as many as they can but hunting pressure forces the most mature and sought after bucks away from the does during the best breeding rut.  This leaves a lot of breeding to be done by immature and unproven bucks.  We see the results the following year with spotted fawns showing up late in the summer.  Does that do not breed one year, develop fat around the ovaries that make it harder and harder for those does to conceive.  The Ovaries are kept warmer than they should be for conception to occur.

During a hard winter the weakest animals die first.  That means the vey young fawns are first to go, then the more recent bearing does because they are already depleted, then the very old deer with poor teeth, then the most active breeding bucks because they have stayed in breeding mode longer and have been unable to recover enough body fat to survive.  What does survive are the non-reproducing does and middle aged bucks that stayed holed up during the hunting seasons.  I have been enough winter kill areas and studied the results for many years here in Washington as well as Montana and Wyoming.   

What we lose by hunting the way we do is the best reproductive stock that breeds and bear young at the correct times are able to recoup the stress of raising young and breeding and being able to have to browse needed to be healthy.  We end up with putting all the pressure on 20% or less of the herd. 

Deer must have brush to browse because they need the tannin in the bark to digest any food.  I have seen alfalfa hay yards completely surrounded by winter killed deer because there is not enough tannin in the hay for them to digest it.  They die of starvation with a full stomach.

If you want great hunting in this state we would have to re-educate ourselves and about what is really going on and why.  Our hunting regs are unfortunately set by science that is controlled by politics.

This is JMHO
Have a great day

[boneaddict]

No flames needed.   There's a lot of truths and or anecdotal truths to your observations.   The system is definitely mucked up.  Generally buck to doe ratio is slanted more male than female at birth.  Basic biology...males survive gestation and the birthing process better.   Happens in almost all natural critters, especially birds (pheasants, quail etc.)   Buck to doe rations have probably never been "right" in this state.   We certainly can argue back and forth on how our hunting seasons are managed these days with the permit process, governor tags etc.   Taking the best of the best out of the gene pools.  Throw in APRs and you have another debate.   I also wouldn't say feeding is the best way to go either.  I don't believe its the Tannin, but more the bacteria and protozoans the deer obtain from the browse they eat.   I believe this has been improved for deer with the use of pellets instead of just hay.   You still have to worry about disease and a myriad of other issues. 
Also agree to the decline in the herd.  It certainly isn't "all the houses on studhorse", per say, but I am sure that is contributing to it.   Just check out the ranges that haven't been inundated with homes yet (though I agree, that's fewer and fewer acres every year).   Unfortunately they are being hammered on so so many fronts.   Make sure you include predators in here as well.   Wolves and cats and coyotes will eat good this winter.   Next year will be interesting.  So, with habitat lost, predator management or the lack thereof, management being dictated by politics instead of grass roots biology, we now find ourselves in the mess we are in.
   

[Eagle_view]

Bone, I agree with what you have said.  I believe that we used to (and this may have changed) say that the Tannin selected the bacteria that was available to digest the more concentrated food value browse.  We do have more predators now than in many years with cougar, bobcat, wolf, bear and coyote all preying on the populations. 
I once flew the length of the Methow from Rogers Lake to Pateros right at the end of the fall migration and after we had a god fresh snow fall on the winter feed grounds.  It was very interesting to see how much territory was lost at each residence by tracking the deer trails the split around each place.  The area was generally larger if the house had what appeared(from trails in the snow) to be dogs that were loose around the area.  As the stress for food increases the deer do work closer to every area that they found need to avoid early in the winter.  The placement of the houses seems to affect winter forage as well with linking avoidance areas sometimes changing the migration entirely. Wolf Creek was such an area.  Unfortunately we will see several years of population adjustment to the new conditions. and will perhaps see some area actually become better  wintering grounds but will have to wait for the foliage to mature enough to provide not only food but thermal protection.  I would hope that we could turn this disaster into something positive for the Mule Deer Herds and for Washington State.

[boneaddict]

Yep, dogs are a HUGE part of it.   I often snicker (the redneck coming out in me) that they often belong to "the  tree hugging environmentalists" too.   My Fido likes to "play with" the deer.   Its going to be painful for a few years.