Let The Methow Herd Destruction Begin

[huntnphool]

If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.

The lack of winter range is precisely the problem.  The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part.  They are resident deer which are used to being around people.  You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there.  The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins.  The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses.  This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.

 I agree habitat is essential but will respectfully disagree with your Methow assessment. Most, if not all, of the winter range that I have been hunting for the last 40 years in the Methow has no more houses/cabins on it than it had back then. The wintering areas where we used to see 500 head at a time are for the most part empty, yet have very little increase in development.

[UBA]

The encroachment into the winter range by houses has lowered the maximum holding capacity of the herd. However I don't believe the herd is even near large enough to use the winter range it currently has.

[grundy53]

The encroachment into the winter range by houses has lowered the maximum holding capacity of the herd. However I don't believe the herd is even near large enough to use the winter range it currently has.

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[wolfbait]

If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.

The lack of winter range is precisely the problem.  The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part.  They are resident deer which are used to being around people.  You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there.  The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins.  The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses.  This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.

So you are saying that predation by wolves and an over population of cougars plus WDFW issuing excessive doe tags wouldn't be an issue if there was more habitat?

In 2008 we fed over a hundred head of deer with our horses and mules last year we fed three does and a little buck, talk to ranchers and they will tell you of the same decline in the amount of deer they fed last year verses 2008.  Whether you want to call them migration deer or farmland there's plenty of habitat, just not many deer and they continue to drop year after year.

[bigmacc]

If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.

The lack of winter range is precisely the problem.  The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part.  They are resident deer which are used to being around people.  You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there.  The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins.  The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses.  This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.

 I agree habitat is essential but will respectfully disagree with your Methow assessment. Most, if not all, of the winter range that I have been hunting for the last 40 years in the Methow has no more houses/cabins on it than it had back then. The wintering areas where we used to see 500 head at a time are for the most part empty, yet have very little increase in development.

I 100percent agree phool, yes houses have been built and property fenced and I,m sure it has impacted the herd but not to the tune of 20- 30 thousand animals! Other factors have contributed. This herd was once estimated at 30 to 40 thousand animals in the not to distant past, I believe that last year they had it pegged at about 10 thousand(and I believe that number is high). Areas we are in have plenty of food, no fences and no houses and is part of the winter range and like your observations - huge declines in numbers over the last 10 years. Could this herd not be the priority it once was? Could it not be being managed as a priority as it once was? Could preditors be out of control? Has mother nature played a role time to time? I think the answer to these questions are yes to all of them. Roughly 20- 30 thousand animals have (for a lack of better words) disappeared over a not to short amount of time and game management thinks the answer is to shoot more does! Could management be a problem? IMHO,I think the answer to this question could be yes also......my

[boneaddict]

 
There's a lot of winter range that isn't touched and is near void of critters.  That's particularly why I think the doe permits are idiotic.

[Bean Counter]

I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity. 

[WAcoueshunter]

Would love to get a bio's perspective on why they think habitat is the limiting factor. 

I don't get up there much anymore, and haven't seen first hand the effects of the 2014-15 fires.  But curious what has changed in the last year since this thread below when people (some on this thread) were convinced that there wasn't enough winter range left to support the herd.   Did it grow back?  Did we just get lucky with a mild winter that didn't concentrate the deer?

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=162357.0

[grundy53]

Would love to get a bio's perspective on why they think habitat is the limiting factor. 

I don't get up there much anymore, and haven't seen first hand the effects of the 2014-15 fires.  But curious what has changed in the last year since this thread below when people (some on this thread) were convinced that there wasn't enough winter range left to support the herd.   Did it grow back?  Did we just get lucky with a mild winter that didn't concentrate the deer?

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=162357.0

Here is one Bio's perspective.

"science and sound management".........................far from it.

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[bigmacc]

I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.

IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year ), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head  decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us...
 
 

[grundy53]

They keep giving out doe permits because it's free money to them. This state doesn't ever give up revenue streams...

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[wsmnut]

In addition to keeping the revenue stream alive, ( for both the state and the Valley),
if Fitkin stops issuing the doe permits it would be admitting that there's a problem.
And he can't have that, can he?  He's been telling everyone for years how well this herd is doing.

[grundy53]

Good point.

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[huntnphool]

In addition to keeping the revenue stream alive, ( for both the state and the Valley),
if Fitkin stops issuing the doe permits it would be admitting that there's a problem.
And he can't have that, can he?  He's been telling everyone for years how well this herd is doing.

 Well there is that little conundrum isn't there!

[boneaddict]

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