hunt test / field trials

[wildweeds]

Mile post 9 Idaho,true test of canine and rider

The groomed forests, flat landscape and mowed pathways are much less physically demanding than running on a mountain with a terrain "factor".

[jetjockey]

You can tell all that by looking at Google Maps?  Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me Happy.  I'm gonna send that to some friends though, they will get a kick out of what you posted.

You should tell the guys who run at Ames in February that the flat ground out there is isnt physically demanding.  They will get a kick out of that.

[Happy Gilmore]

You can tell all that by looking at Google Maps?  Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me Happy.  I'm gonna send that to some friends though, they will get a kick out of what you posted.

You should tell the guys who run at Ames in February that the flat ground out there is isnt physically demanding.  They will get a kick out of that.

its just because you are so full of yourself that I enjoy it.

[AspenBud]

The South is not all milk and honey when it comes to field trials. There is a reason the majority of English Pointers in rescue come from down there and on over to Texas... and it's not a breed problem, it's a culture problem. Throw in plantations that breed dogs to find birds for their clients, dogs that are expected to run like trial dogs down there, and you have a problem. The flip side of course is you can get some good dogs for very little out of there because of that, but depending on who did the breeding you may get a dog that won't last past age 4.

There is also a reason why English Setters have continued to be competitive in northern state grouse trials and not overrun by English Pointers (not that English Pointers haven't made their presence known), it takes a different kind of dog to be effective in that game. Those leggy wide running quail dogs don't always make a good fit in the woods where you really want the equivalent of Barry Sanders running around obstacles instead of a Jerry Rice out for a long pass. If you look at a lot of AA dogs they lean more towards larger, longer legged, dogs. AA dogs might be bred into Cover Dog lines, Elhew Sinbad sure has, but they are usually not all horseback either.

The point is, what wins in the South versus the upper Midwest versus the PNW...those can well be different. Terrain and cover are all factors in that as is weather.

[jetjockey]

Ya, but Happy wouldn't know anything about that. Several years ago he didn't even know what American Field was.  Now he's a pointing dog pro when it comes to field trials!      But then again, his reputation procedes him, and he doesn't even know it. 

[AspenBud]

There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.

[Happy Gilmore]

There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.

Steep hills and gullies also have different scenting conditions which also carry with them a different aspect for which a dog must learn. The easiest conditions are obviously low wind, upper humidity levels with less moisture on the ground. There are some advanced search dog tracking books which have excellent chapters on scenting factors which every valid dog person should read and understand.

[wildweeds]

Tekoa Mountain Sunrise was actually from the east and south ,so was Pinekone Max Jr as well as most of the other notable dogs in Tekoas star studded line up of paper trail.There really is no set of western genetics in setters per se.I've got a tekoa dog and he ain't really anything to even bother mentioning in pet quality circles.

.

There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.

[AspenBud]

Tekoa Mountain Sunrise was actually from the east and south ,so was Pinekone Max Jr as well as most of the other notable dogs in Tekoas star studded line up of paper trail.There really is no set of western genetics in setters per se.I've got a tekoa dog and he ain't really anything to even bother mentioning in pet quality circles.

.

There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.

True

[jetjockey]

The best dogs can win anywhere.  Doesn't matter if it's the hills in the West and North East, the sand of South Georgia, or the mud of TN.  They win in the prairies and they win in the tight bean and cotton fields of the South East.  But they also get introduced to all of those conditions as well, and it's why the big time pro trainers all go to the Midwest and Canada for summer camps on wild birds.  It's also why they shoot over, and hunt over their dogs.  You train dogs for the toughest conditions possible so they can handle all conditions well.  It's why many Pros run summer camps in the prairies on wild birds, but also winter camps in the south on wild birds.  And it's also why those dogs get hunted over.  That way when a dog gets to a trial, it can easily handle the pressure of big wild coveys. 

If you take a dog that hasn't seen a lot of wild birds, and then put them in the middle of a wild covey of bobs, they will unravel.  If you take a big running dog from out west that is used to being able to see for miles and always being in touch with its handler, and put it on the tight courses in the South where you rarely see the dog and they are forced to handle, that big running dog will quickly turn into a short running dog.  But, if you take a big running dog that looks good on the tight Southern courses, and put it in the Midwest where a dog can really roll, that big running dog might not run nearly as big as you thought either.  The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.

The problem with bird dogs and trials is people seem to want to label everything.  Guys say you can't hunt an All Age horseback dog, and trial dogs can't handle wild birds, or that hunting dogs cant trial. They say a dog from out West can't win in the East, and vice versa.  It's all a B.S..  They are dogs, and while very few dogs will set the American Field All Age world on fire, if you expose them to different scenerios, they typically adapt pretty well.  Give that kick Azz chuckar dog a little experience in the quail woods, they will become a kick azz quail dog.  Give that West coast trial dog use to wide open spaces a little time running on tight courses where they have to learn how to handle, and if they are a good dog, they will gain the confidence to run big when out of sight and learn to stay to the front.   Good dogs are good dogs, no matter if they just hunt, trial, or only hunt pen raised birds. 

[Bluemoon]

Dang it...I hate when Jet makes sense.. Very good post...

[Happy Gilmore]

Dang it...I hate when Jet makes sense.. Very good post...

If I can do it once and a while anybody should be able to do it often

[ribka]

good post
Have hunted really tight cover for wood cock, grouse in WI , Maine,  WA and  coveys of quail in  MD, KS , NE MO, and down south in Georgia with various dogs. And moving out here to the PNW we have grouse in tight cover and sometimes the quail hold tight cover in large groups.

 In addition wide the PNW offers varied open areas with huns, chukar and  pressured and running pheasant. Throw in waterfowl too and for some rabbits.  Yep comes down to the dog.


Picked up a griffon pup and in the process of making her a well-rounded  socialized dog and hunting machine. Working with pigeons now, and the wild quail , huns on my property



would be very curious how he dogs in the SE would fair out here in the PNW chasing huns,  and chukar

appreciate all of the insight by the more experienced trainers on here.

The best dogs can win anywhere.  Doesn't matter if it's the hills in the West and North East, the sand of South Georgia, or the mud of TN.  They win in the prairies and they win in the tight bean and cotton fields of the South East.  But they also get introduced to all of those conditions as well, and it's why the big time pro trainers all go to the Midwest and Canada for summer camps on wild birds.  It's also why they shoot over, and hunt over their dogs.  You train dogs for the toughest conditions possible so they can handle all conditions well.  It's why many Pros run summer camps in the prairies on wild birds, but also winter camps in the south on wild birds.  And it's also why those dogs get hunted over.  That way when a dog gets to a trial, it can easily handle the pressure of big wild coveys. 

If you take a dog that hasn't seen a lot of wild birds, and then put them in the middle of a wild covey of bobs, they will unravel.  If you take a big running dog from out west that is used to being able to see for miles and always being in touch with its handler, and put it on the tight courses in the South where you rarely see the dog and they are forced to handle, that big running dog will quickly turn into a short running dog.  But, if you take a big running dog that looks good on the tight Southern courses, and put it in the Midwest where a dog can really roll, that big running dog might not run nearly as big as you thought either.  The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.

The problem with bird dogs and trials is people seem to want to label everything.  Guys say you can't hunt an All Age horseback dog, and trial dogs can't handle wild birds, or that hunting dogs cant trial. They say a dog from out West can't win in the East, and vice versa.  It's all a B.S..  They are dogs, and while very few dogs will set the American Field All Age world on fire, if you expose them to different scenerios, they typically adapt pretty well.  Give that kick Azz chuckar dog a little experience in the quail woods, they will become a kick azz quail dog.  Give that West coast trial dog use to wide open spaces a little time running on tight courses where they have to learn how to handle, and if they are a good dog, they will gain the confidence to run big when out of sight and learn to stay to the front.   Good dogs are good dogs, no matter if they just hunt, trial, or only hunt pen raised birds.

[jetjockey]

Kind of a cool write up about the Continental.  You can kind of see the history and the culture of the trial.  The Continental is an AF trial with nothing to do with the AKC.

http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/running-of-the-2015-continental-all-age-field-trial/

[AspenBud]

The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.

You may have been trying to say something else with that statement, but I have to disagree based on how I'm reading it. The best dogs can be successful under all conditions, but to win...that's another story. I don't know of any Southern quail dogs doing particularly well in Cover Dog (ruffed grouse) trials and I can say same of the reverse. I do know of a dog, out of Elhew Sinbad, that has run both Cover Dog and HB trials and he has done fairly well in CD and okay in HB. But realistically it is a rare dog that can do both truly successfully. The requirements athletically are different, the weather is different, the cover is different, and how the birds behave is different. A true voodoo grouse dog will have spent the time on those birds and in the environment to do well on them by the rules of the competition they play in. Same with quail dogs down South.

If you're running a quail dog in grouse trials or a grouse dog in AA quail trials and are successful...that's a statement. I'm not talking about breeding there, I'm talking about what the dogs have been trained to do.