HB 1676: Understanding the effects of predation on wild ungulate populations

[pianoman9701]

Shocking!

[idahohuntr]

Politicians make poor scientists and wildlife managers.  This bill does nothing to help manage wildlife and wastes resources and staff time.  It is very poorly written and will not result in anything useful or beneficial for predator management or deer and elk management.   Maybe it serves as a way to bring about more public dialogue about balancing predator populations and ungulate populations, which is great, as long as it does not pass and waste more money.

Another no voter, surprise surprise. 

While politicians might make poor scientists the same could be said of pro-wolf supporters as well as wdfw who are more aligned with pro-wolf groups than an independent state agency should be

Wolf stuff will always be poilitcal of course...but when politicians go beyond debating and legislating public policy and start writing bills directing how research is to be conducted... 

[pianoman9701]

I guess that's what you get when meeting recovery goals is nowhere in sight and people are losing their livelihoods, dependent on the things that wolves eat. The outrageous wolf plan, I now believe, was purposely designed to make those goals, and therefor management almost impossible to achieve. The greenies have taken over the Commission and the advisory group. Nothing positive will get done without interference and advance warnings for those who would see hunting die and wolves never harmed for any reason. It's a disgusting state of affairs. Hopefully, the legislature can have some positive influence to move things along.

[mfswallace]

Politicians make poor scientists and wildlife managers.  This bill does nothing to help manage wildlife and wastes resources and staff time.  It is very poorly written and will not result in anything useful or beneficial for predator management or deer and elk management.   Maybe it serves as a way to bring about more public dialogue about balancing predator populations and ungulate populations, which is great, as long as it does not pass and waste more money.

Another no voter, surprise surprise. 

While politicians might make poor scientists the same could be said of pro-wolf supporters as well as wdfw who are more aligned with pro-wolf groups than an independent state agency should be

Wolf stuff will always be poilitcal of course...but when politicians go beyond debating and legislating public policy and start writing bills directing how research is to be conducted... 

This says nothing about how the research must be accomplished but does outline what specific data must be sought since it wasn't done when wolves were transplanted... Why is having this kind of data a bad thing, except it will glaringly show the true impact wolves have on decimating ungulates in the areas they inhabit until they move to the next area.

[idahohuntr]

Politicians make poor scientists and wildlife managers.  This bill does nothing to help manage wildlife and wastes resources and staff time.  It is very poorly written and will not result in anything useful or beneficial for predator management or deer and elk management.   Maybe it serves as a way to bring about more public dialogue about balancing predator populations and ungulate populations, which is great, as long as it does not pass and waste more money.

Another no voter, surprise surprise. 

While politicians might make poor scientists the same could be said of pro-wolf supporters as well as wdfw who are more aligned with pro-wolf groups than an independent state agency should be

Wolf stuff will always be poilitcal of course...but when politicians go beyond debating and legislating public policy and start writing bills directing how research is to be conducted... 

This says nothing about how the research must be accomplished but does outline what specific data must be sought since it wasn't done when wolves were transplanted... Why is having this kind of data a bad thing, except it will glaringly show the true impact wolves have on decimating ungulates in the areas they inhabit until they move to the next area.

Why do you need to conduct "research" if you already know the answer and will refuse to accept any evaluation that could possibly tell you something different? Why do we need to waste tax and license dollars on something so stupid?  I would rather watch legislators burn $100 bills in a wheelbarrow on the steps of the capitol than have some stupid politicized bill like this pass which will result in WDFW doing as objective a report as possible...then the screeching anti wolf zealots will cry and whine because there will be some moderation to the report that highlights the numerous factors which influence ungulate populations...and that screeching will be followed by the screeching greenie pro wolf zealots who will cry and snivel because the report suggests some need for wolf management including lethal take to manage ungulates and minimize conflicts.  Then the media will run stories quoting the loudest, least informed and most annoying of the opposite camps about what the report means...which will further politicize the whole dang thing and next thing you know we will have bills coming from the other side of the legislature demanding wdfw study how the wolves will bring all the beavers back...and the cycle continues 

[huntrights]

This is a great bill.  Passed House Agriculture  and Natural Resources committee unanimously 12-0.  The bill was amended in the House General Government and Information Technology Committee, in which it was improved, and passed that committee unanimously 7-0.  This bill has a great chance of passing the House and it it makes it through the House, it will fly through the Senate.

 

This bill needs to pass.  There may be some nay-Sayers in this forum, but pursuing sound and unbiased science is the goal; to accept anything less can result in bad wolf management.  We need to properly manage wolf populations to avoid negative effects on ungulate populations, livestock, domestic animals, and rural human settlements.  The only way to do this is by sound and unbiased science that will be peer reviewed.  Please make sure you read the bill and understand the overall goal.

This is a good bill.

[mfswallace]

Politicians make poor scientists and wildlife managers.  This bill does nothing to help manage wildlife and wastes resources and staff time.  It is very poorly written and will not result in anything useful or beneficial for predator management or deer and elk management.   Maybe it serves as a way to bring about more public dialogue about balancing predator populations and ungulate populations, which is great, as long as it does not pass and waste more money.

Another no voter, surprise surprise. 

While politicians might make poor scientists the same could be said of pro-wolf supporters as well as wdfw who are more aligned with pro-wolf groups than an independent state agency should be

Wolf stuff will always be poilitcal of course...but when politicians go beyond debating and legislating public policy and start writing bills directing how research is to be conducted... 

This says nothing about how the research must be accomplished but does outline what specific data must be sought since it wasn't done when wolves were transplanted... Why is having this kind of data a bad thing, except it will glaringly show the true impact wolves have on decimating ungulates in the areas they inhabit until they move to the next area.

Why do you need to conduct "research" if you already know the answer and will refuse to accept any evaluation that could possibly tell you something different? Why do we need to waste tax and license dollars on something so stupid?  I would rather watch legislators burn $100 bills in a wheelbarrow on the steps of the capitol than have some stupid politicized bill like this pass which will result in WDFW doing as objective a report as possible...then the screeching anti wolf zealots will cry and whine because there will be some moderation to the report that highlights the numerous factors which influence ungulate populations...and that screeching will be followed by the screeching greenie pro wolf zealots who will cry and snivel because the report suggests some need for wolf management including lethal take to manage ungulates and minimize conflicts.  Then the media will run stories quoting the loudest, least informed and most annoying of the opposite camps about what the report means...which will further politicize the whole dang thing and next thing you know we will have bills coming from the other side of the legislature demanding wdfw study how the wolves will bring all the beavers back...and the cycle continues 

Pot meet kettle 

[bobcat]

I didn't read this bill and know nothing about it other than what I read in the comments here.

My question is does the bill provide a way to fund all the studies that it is requiring? It sounds to me like this is a very expensive proposition. It would undoubtedly require the WDFW to hire many more employees.

Wolves eat deer and elk. What more do we need to know? Why study it?

[mfswallace]

I didn't read this bill and know nothing about it other than what I read in the comments here.

My question is does the bill provide a way to fund all the studies that it is requiring? It sounds to me like this is a very expensive proposition. It would undoubtedly require the WDFW to hire many more employees.

Wolves eat deer and elk. What more do we need to know? Why study it?

Maybe they could use money from the wolf fund since it seems to be endless.... Or I don't know maybe instead of the feds trying to introduce another ungulate killer they could use those millions of dollars...

[dreamunelk]

To short of time to do a peer reviewed study.  Maybe an assessment or literature review?
My bet is none of you will like the results.  So might as well start whining now.... 
Too many caveats.  There is far more peer reviewed science on this subject then many of you realize.  Forcing the WDFW to do this study could really hurt the big picture. 
What many need to do is actually read the wolf plan and then support it but, fight for more aggressive management.  Push for biology over politics and feelings.  You will find out that taking this route will end up in better results.  Not doing so will give the wolf zealots all they need to tie up things in court and win.  Guess who always looses in this battle.

For those of you who chose to research remember to put your feelings aside and try an understand the biology.  It is hard, but in time you will find that the biology is the correct route as it is the only way the hunters will come out ahead.

Take a look at the court cases.  Start supporting based on biology and we can win.  Keep up with the local arrogance and we will lose.  Look at what happened in other States when every one acted on feelings.  All sides!  Population goals where reached and then they continues to grow because everyone chose one side or the other.  Find the middle ground and support it.  Much easier for WDFW to get aggressive with wolves when needed if they have some support.

I son't think will help us in the long run.

Just my 

Ask what is best for the ecosystem as whole.  Not what is best to fill my tag.

[mfswallace]

To short of time to do a peer reviewed study.  Maybe an assessment or literature review?
My bet is none of you will like the results.  So might as well start whining now.... 
Too many caveats.  There is far more peer reviewed science on this subject then many of you realize.  Forcing the WDFW to do this study could really hurt the big picture. 
What many need to do is actually read the wolf plan and then support it but, fight for more aggressive management.  Push for biology over politics and feelings.  You will find out that taking this route will end up in better results.  Not doing so will give the wolf zealots to tie up things in court.  Guess who always looses in this battle.

For those of you who chose to research remember to put your feelings aside and try an understand the biology.  It is hard, but in time you will find that the biology is the correct route as it is the only way the hunters will come out ahead.

Take a look at the court cases.  Start supporting based on biology and we can win.  Keep up with the local arrogance and we will lose.  Look at what happened in other States when every one acted on feelings.  All sides!  Population goals where reached and then they continues to grow because everyone chose one side or the other.  Find the middle ground and support it.  Much easier for WDFW to get aggressive with wolves when needed if they have some support.

I son't think will help us in the long run.

Just my 

Ask what is best for the ecosystem as whole.  Not what is best to fill me tag.

-Ecosystems don't need wolves or grizzly bears, they have been fine without them for a hundred years-- the ultimate predator(humans) should be allowed to hunt more       more tags=more money and that is the problem really isn't it???

[idahohuntr]

Pot meet kettle 

There are 2 problems with your statement: 1 - Im not supporting any bill that fleeces taxpayers and 2 - I've got no problem with objective evaluations of wolf impacts to ungulates that will benefit wildlife management.

It is certainly your right to support politicians and ballot box wildlife management.  I don't.  BTW - How'd that work out for hounds and bear baiting in Wa state?

[dreamunelk]

Do the research.  It is not about the individual and not about the money.  It is about hunting and the experience. 
Is it hunting or the killing that generate the dollars?  Could be both?  I am not sure.  If it is about the killing our hunting heritage is doomed.  But, I am a hunter not a killer. 
For me it is the hunting!  I choose to elk hunt areas with low healthy populations but, have big mature bulls.  I am happy with tag soup knowing that I could have harvested but, chose to try for something else.  Start to fully understand wildlife population dynamics and you will see the light.  Look at the highest potential for mature bulls and you will find they are low population units.  These units have healthy predator populations.  It is the inefficient predator that is controlled. 
Big bulls are smart bulls that escaped all the predators.

Beware the ballot box!

[bearpaw]

Do the research.  It is not about the individual and not about the money.  It is about hunting and the experience. 
Is it hunting or the killing that generate the dollars?  Could be both?  I am not sure.  If it is about the killing our hunting heritage is doomed.  But, I am a hunter not a killer. 
For me it is the hunting!  I choose to elk hunt areas with low healthy populations but, have big mature bulls.  I am happy with tag soup knowing that I could have harvested but, chose to try for something else.  Start to fully understand wildlife population dynamics and you will see the light.  Look at the highest potential for mature bulls and you will find they are low population units.  These units have healthy predator populations.  It is the inefficient predator that is controlled. 
Big bulls are smart bulls that escaped all the predators.

Beware the ballot box!

Aren't most of the biggest bulls coming from units in Utah, Arizona, New Mexico where there are no wolves and cougars are hunted much harder than here in WA.

Hunters prefer the areas where there is good success, when herds drop and success drops the hunters quit coming. That has been proven many times in Idaho and other states where wolves have over populated and reduced what were once some of the greatest herds.

There have been countless pieces of legislation opposing hunting and I'm sure that trend will continue, it seems pretty foolish for hunters to not support legislation that favors hunters. 

[mfswallace]

Do the research.  It is not about the individual and not about the money.  It is about hunting and the experience. 
Is it hunting or the killing that generate the dollars?  Could be both?  I am not sure.  If it is about the killing our hunting heritage is doomed.  But, I am a hunter not a killer. 
For me it is the hunting!  I choose to elk hunt areas with low healthy populations but, have big mature bulls.  I am happy with tag soup knowing that I could have harvested but, chose to try for something else.  Start to fully understand wildlife population dynamics and you will see the light.  Look at the highest potential for mature bulls and you will find they are low population units.  These units have healthy predator populations.  It is the inefficient predator that is controlled. 
Big bulls are smart bulls that escaped all the predators.

Beware the ballot box!

Here's some research you should read...

http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolves_and_hunting.html