Cut on Impact vs chisel broadheads

[raydog]

Which do you guys prefer for Big game like elk. Right now i have slick tricks and they seem just fine. I havent shot anything with the STs yet. I was thing of switching to a Magnus for a little more penatration. I was wondering how they hold up to impact with a bone.

[D-Rock425]

I've never noticed a difference between the two and ive tried both types.  One good arrow behind the shoulder you'll never tell the difference because the end result will be the same dead elk.

[blindluck]

I use wasp sst boss never tried cut on contact but the wasp have been great till lately, a couple of us have had the whole broadhead ferral bend or shear off.

[RadSav]

As much as people want to sing the praises of cut-on-contact it's usually a scientific misnomer.  The actual point of a broadhead is responsible for such a microscopic difference in penetration it really doesn't represent much of an advantage or disadvantage.  Number of blades, ferrule contour, size of blade venting, length and cutting diameter, sharpness of blade, blade thickness all have a greater effect on penetration than does the itty bitty little point.

Tests that people like to do by pushing a broadhead through a piece of leather mean dang near nothing in the big picture of physics.  That test is what is called a "Static Force" test.  It measures the amount of increasing static force required to break the friction threshold of a medium.  Increasing static friction is the exact opposite of what is happening when an arrow hits it's target.

When an arrow leaves the bow it has already broken the static threshold and it can no longer increase pressure/energy.  So penetration is then determined by how an arrow/broadhead combination decelerates rather than how it accelerates or builds pressure/energy.  By the time an arrow has lost enough energy and/or velocity to a point where it once again meets that static threshold and the point itself might make some level of impact one way or the other - all is lost.  Meaning the resulting difference will me multiple times smaller than it was when static pressure was building rather than deteriorating.

Cut-on-contact points are usually married to a broadhead with only a single blade (two edges).  So most confusion is brought on by trying to correlate the two (two edges and point configuration) when really the single blade plus long blade length to cutting diameter ratio is what led to the better penetration.  The point didn't really mean anything!

Unless you are at the bottom of the draw length / draw weight spectrum penetration is not a big concern with todays compound bows.  Much-a doo is made by lazy writers and marketing hype but it really is not the big concern it is led to be.  So in my opinion you would be better served by choosing a broadhead that cuts well rather than one that has grand marketing hype and supposition. 

Slick Trick broadheads aren't the best of the best when it comes to penetration.  They are after all a four blade head with thick steep blades.  But...Slick Trick heads have some of the best stainless blades on the market, the steeper blade angles do increase cutting once velocity of penetration starts to slow and they are rather easy to get to fly well.  They also have a short but impressive history of leaving very impressive blood trails making that tracking job rather easy.  To me that gives the Slick Trick the edge over some mildly sharp, fragile blade, cut-on-contact head. 

Might not add up that way if you shoot a long bow, have a super short draw length or have some ailment where you must shoot at minimal draw weights.  In that case the two edge or three blade heads have an advantage.  Not necessarily because of the point.  But because of the over all reduction in frictional surfaces.

[raydog]

   Thanks a lot for the info Rad. I shoot a 68 pound bow with a 29.5" draw. I will probably stick to the Slick tricks or look into Savora BHs

[D-Rock425]

So much info once again from radsav  .  I shot the slick tricks a couple years then switched back to wac'em broadheads out of the two i preferred the wac'em a little more.  Both heads killed animals i just think the wac'em came out in better shape most of the time.

[RadSav]

Thanks a lot for the info Rad. I shoot a 68 pound bow with a 29.5" draw. I will probably stick to the Slick tricks or look into Savora BHs

You should have no problem with penetration with that setup!  Just stay clear of the base of that big scapula.  It will suck up just about any broadhead.  I've found 6mm and 30 cal bullets plus a good number of muzzy balls in that darn thing over the years.  I even had it stop a Zwickey tipped 2219 shot from an 80# bow.  Luckily the second one went from anus to esophagus so I could find out what happened on that first shot!

We are using the same steel in our blades that Slick Trick does.  I haven't checked the Rockwell hardness between the two, but I believe we are very close to theirs.  Either one should be a good choice for elk, deer, bear or just about anything your likely to find on this continent!

[h20hunter]

Rad....if you come across any of those pics showing a "sucked up" muzzy ball or broadhead in bone I'd love to see them. Those types of "finds" are pretty fascinating.

[raydog]

If you had to choose out of the Savora broadhead line in 125 grain, Which would be you choice for Washington? Just curious

[RadSav]

I shot the slick tricks a couple years then switched back to wac'em broadheads out of the two i preferred the wac'em a little more.  Both heads killed animals i just think the wac'em came out in better shape most of the time.

Stainless grades are a bit goofy.  416 is more durable than AEB-L yet edge quality and damage resistance seems better on the AEB-L.  Neither is as durable as 1095. And neither will sharpen as well as 1095.  But both sell way better than 1095

We have had a few preliminary runs of AEB-L that have just not taken an edge well even at the appropriate Rockwell.  And I always had problems with 416 edges not grinding.  Instead they often fold the microscopic point of sharpness.  So even the premium Sanvik and Uddeholm stainless can see some variation from lot to lot.

[RadSav]

If you had to choose out of the Savora broadhead line in 125 grain, Which would be you choice for Washington? Just curious

Ti-Con 125 for sure!  Suppose to start shipping those on Monday!

We will have some prototype DelMastro 125 Titanium Signatures to play with by the end of next week too.  Getting exciting around here.

[Jonathan_S]

I shot the slick tricks a couple years then switched back to wac'em broadheads out of the two i preferred the wac'em a little more.  Both heads killed animals i just think the wac'em came out in better shape most of the time.

Stainless grades are a bit goofy.  416 is more durable than AEB-L yet edge quality and damage resistance seems better on the AEB-L.  Neither is as durable as 1095. And neither will sharpen as well as 1095.  But both sell way better than 1095

We have had a few preliminary runs of AEB-L that have just not taken an edge well even at the appropriate Rockwell.  And I always had problems with 416 edges grinding rather than folding the microscopic point of sharpness.  So even the premium Sanvik and Uddeholm stainless can see some variation from lot to lot.

I know what you mean

[D-Rock425]

Some 125 titanium Delmastro's   now that i can use .  Planning on sticking an elk with Dels name on it before Del.  I'll be sure to email him lots of pictures 

[BOWHUNTER45]

I use wasp sst boss never tried cut on contact but the wasp have been great till lately, a couple of us have had the whole broadhead ferral bend or shear off.

You got a bad batch !

[BOWHUNTER45]

I best note I am a RadSav fan now but Wasp will always be in my heart 

Here is the worst damage I ever had on any Wasp boss ..100gr ..pass threw one shoulder blade of elk at 40 yrds quartering to me shot ..not counting how big this elk was ...   We do have one kill under our belts with RadSav ( Savora ) only a spike  Not much bone there  Maybe I will try one on a turkey 

[h20hunter]

I best note I am a RadSav fan now but Wasp will always be in my heart 

Here is the worst damage I ever had on any Wasp boss ..100gr ..pass threw one shoulder blade of elk at 40 yrds quartering to me shot ..not counting how big this elk was ...   We do have one kill under our belts with RadSav ( Savora ) only a spike  Not much bone there  Maybe I will try one on a turkey 

Cool.....expanded bullets....busted up broadheads...love 'em.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Most important thing to me is the broadhead holding up ! Yes it is all bent up and wristed but it did not come apart 

[HillSlick]

I have only used Magnus stingers (cut on contact) and  they work great for me.

Saw a website where a guy shot one into a cinder block with an 80# bow, stayed intact. I was flabbergasted.


-"Progress once meant hope for the future, now it will destroy it."

[justyhntr]

Unless you are at the bottom of the draw length / draw weight spectrum penetration is not a big concern with todays compound bows. 

Might not add up that way if you shoot a long bow, have a super short draw length or have some ailment where you must shoot at minimal draw weights.  In that case the two edge or three blade heads have an advantage.  Not necessarily because of the point.  But because of the over all reduction in frictional surfaces.

Any recomendations for those who  are short armed and female? Shooting 24.5 draw length 52 lb draw weight out of a compound.
 thanks!

[RadSav]

Any recomendations for those who  are short armed and female? Shooting 24.5 draw length 52 lb draw weight out of a compound.

Depends a bit on arrow weight.  There is always a compromise to be had at these light weights and short lengths.  On deer my wife never seems to have an arrow not pass all the way through.  She shoots 24.5 - 25" draw length and usually 50#.  we have seen a definate improvement in penetration when she moved north of 340 grains of arrow weight.  So we've kept it around 350 grains.

On elk she seems to always get both lungs but doesn't always get through that opposite chest wall.  Really depends on whether she hits a rib hard on exit or not.  Different blades and points  haven't really made a difference in that.  because of this her blood trails are not always real heavy.  So we try to stick with three blade heads over two blade heads.  Usually 1" to 1.125" diameter without too steap an angle.  Thunderhead 85, Whack'em, Montec are nice for ladies.  I was quite impressed with our TripleSec LPS 100 on last years elk for her.  Though my preference is for her to use the UltraCon and TiCon 100 heads we just released.  She has field tested them extensively with zero animal loss and some fantastic long range shots with zero recovery distance.

With that said I have a good friend in N. Dakota with very young daughters shooting some very light poundage.  They have been killing a good number of deer even with those limitations using two blade heads.  I beleive their head of choice is the Strikland head.  That would also be a highly recommended head for longbow shooters!

[justyhntr]

Thank you for the reply! We are building my hunting arrows soon and 350 grains or higher is the target weight. It's a little tricky to do with a short draw, as you know.
 i will look at those Strickland heads also - thanks again!
Justyhntr's wife

[RadSav]

What are people's thoughts on single bevel broadheads like the grizzlystik maasai's?

Good for African bound dentists

[justyhntr]

A vidoe on beveled broadheads that I found interesting.

[RadSav]

so are you implying that they are not worth the price tag associated with them? I haven't personally use them yet, however the reading I did seem fairly impressive. I'm not going to argue, there is quite a sticker shock when looking at the cost of them. However if people have used them I'd be curious to know their experiences and what they think of the product overall.

There are advantages to single bevel heads.  Initial prototype heads and even original patent images from both Duke Savora and Dick Maleski showed a preferred blade with a single beveled edge.  Both of them quickly abandon the idea due to micro edge durability.  The super thick blades the dentist uses should eliminate that problem to a large degree and also make them sharp which isn't all that easy a thing to accomplish with such a thick blade.

Is it worth the money?   Depends on your personal preference, I guess.  If I was shooting some slow dog longbow at a buffalo...maybe!  If I had any desire to tempt fate again and shoot a two blade broadhead I would probably take more than one look at a single bevel blade.  Certainly could not be any worse than my personal experience with other two blade heads.  I have close personal friends that shoot them and like them.  Some of those friends are very successful bowhunters.  Do they have shorter blood trails and quicker kills than I do?  No, but they have confidence in it so who am I to tell them their money is better spent on something else?

If someone wants to use them instead of ours...that's ok with me.  As long as it is not barbed or leaving animals out there to die a slow painful death I have little to say one way or the other.  Certainly not the worst head on the market.  Not even close!!!  But, I doubt you will see us making one any time soon.