Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?

[jetjockey]

I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen!  And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one).  Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Shows me how tough it is to train for those titles.

Yes and no.  There's a happy balance between tightening the screws too tight and making a robot, and doing enough that the dog responds, but still has the confidence, style, and drive to win trials.  My dog might not whoa at 50+ yards, but she won't blow a back or keep going on a stop to flush.  Her bird work is very very good.

Very good that the bird work is tight. But if done correctly you can have a dog that reliably stops on whoa without touching any of its style or making it a robot. That's why you don't train whoa in a bird field....it's yard work. Dogs learn by association. If you do pressure in the bird field it will learn to associate that pressure with the field. Same concept with pressure when the bird is on the ground. You will get a dog who flags or blinks birds.

The comment was "stopping in their tracks", not reliably stopping.  Those are two different things.  You train in the yard, and in the field.  There is no problem using "whoa" in the field or around birds.  "Whoa" has nothing to do with birds, and if trained properly, the dog knows that. 

[addicted2hunting]

Oh for sure you train in the field but the initial start should be yard work. Then move it to the field and on birds. Physics does not allow a dog at a run to immediately stop what I meant is just stopping. Sorry for the in its tracks exaggeration. Yes you should be able to say whoa in the field at a reasonable distance and the dog stops. And yes my comment stands if you mess too much with a dog in the scent cone or on point you run the risk of flagging and blinking. Once the bird gets up that's a different story. I have ran into trainers that say both so everyone has their way of doing things and getting to the same end goal. I prefer the least amount of pressure to get the job done, some dogs just take more pressure. Timing is also very critical in dog training.

[addicted2hunting]

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well.  She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:

Yeah 9 months is a good time to start... I'm sure she has had a ton of time to have fun and chase and be exposed to many things by now.

[jetjockey]

The initial start should be bird exposure with no pressure.  Let them run, find birds, chase, and have a great time.  Then introduce the gun.  You can tell when it's time to start reigning them in and moves  to the yard work.  By then they should be bird crazy and had birds killed over them already.  I hunted my Brit last fall with no yard work whatsoever.  She got to run, chase, and gained a ton of confidence after having birds killed over her.   When she gained too much confidence it was time to put her on the barrel and introduce the yard work. But even then, it was with almost no pressure.  She's just over 12 months old now and has been on wild birds for the last month.  She's now collar conditioned, heel and whoa broke (mostly) and still loves to point and chase birds.  But she hasn't been broke yet because she's still young.  I don't think it's too far off though.  If she's not broke by the end of summer camp, I might do it this fall.  It will all depend on her.

[addicted2hunting]

The initial start should be bird exposure with no pressure.  Let them run, find birds, chase, and have a great time.  Then introduce the gun.  You can tell when it's time to start reigning them in and moves  to the yard work.  By then they should be bird crazy and had birds killed over them already.  I hunted my Brit last fall with no yard work whatsoever.  She got to run, chase, and gained a ton of confidence after having birds killed over her.   When she gained too much confidence it was time to put her on the barrel and introduce the yard work. But even then, it was with almost no pressure.  She's just over 12 months old now and has been on wild birds for the last month.  She's now collar conditioned, heel and whoa broke (mostly) and still loves to point and chase birds.  But she hasn't been broke yet because she's still young.  I don't think it's too far off though.  If she's not broke by the end of summer camp, I might do it this fall.  It will all depend on her.

yeah exactly how it went with my boy, I think as a pup I only made him whoa right before eating. Other than that he didn't have a single command except the typical no and stuff like most pets have. but yeah it was all freedom for him to chase birds and exposure to gun and such. I let him chase for too long most the trainers said. He would chase into the next county. his NA test he took off after a chukar and was across the field leaped a barb wire fence and ran through the tracking field... it was funny. he would mow down a sticker bush patch to get at just a pigeon... I thought it was fun till a pro said its time to break him. I did hunt over him last year mostly ducks though. he got to chase quail and some pheasant in E. wa. but he was only 5 months.

[ribka]

I think in the past I started my dogs too early with the more serious training. Wanted to give this dog more time to develop prey drive chase, smell and gain confidence. She has been exposed to a lot of quail, grouse, huns plus the pigeons. She is learning how the wind blows scent around and is learning to locate and stay in scent cone. I think she needs a little more confidence. She gets basic obedience of stay, whoa, come heal etc. She does well on leash in country and in city with a lot of distractions. She comes really well if distracted on an e  collar with a beep, fairly well without the collar. She has been well socialized with other dogs cats, horses. SHot over etc.

So think it is time to get her on a barrel and start next phase of training

thanks again everyone for input. Wealth of knowledge on here.

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well.  She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:

Yeah 9 months is a good time to start... I'm sure she has had a ton of time to have fun and chase and be exposed to many things by now.

[wildweeds]

If your considering sending the dog  to R.J. for a month before the season starts you'd better get ahold of him pretty quick,he will be leaving for a months worth of  sharptail hunting/training about the 29th-30th of august.You'll get a dog back that will see more birds in a month than in about three seasons.Last year the bird numbers were off the charts.As far as I know he always offers up for clients to come and hunt on this trip.I sent two with him a couple years ago and am planning on going over this year.It's a limited entry trip,keeps the dog numbers down as to provide a lot of exposure per student.

[Old Dog]

I spoke with RJ  just last night, and he will leaving for Montana on the 24th.  I'm supposed to pick Jasmine up on the 21st,. but I'm still debating on sending her to MT.  I also want to run her for at least her CPR in late Sept., and I wouldn't be able to do that if I send her with RJ.  I have a week to make up my mind what is more important.    

[wildweeds]

Solidifying even further what has been learned  and transitioned to  wild birds would be more important to me than a single weekend test ran on pen raised ducks.But that's just me,He broke 2 dogs for me 2 years ago and they both went  to Montana for the extra month.

[Old Dog]

  I'm really leaning that way hard.  It would be nice to have the bragging right to a couple of ribbons, but at the end of the day what I really want is a good bird dog.  Frankly it's also about finances.  I don't know if I can swing another month of training, and still hunt the Dakotas. 

[addicted2hunting]

Solidifying even further what has been learned  and transitioned to  wild birds would be more important to me than a single weekend test ran on pen raised ducks.But that's just me,He broke 2 dogs for me 2 years ago and they both went  to Montana for the extra month.

I agree, that dog will learn a ton going to Montana hunting wild birds. Just more fun if get to be the one hunting the whole time with her!;) she would get more wild bird contacts in one week in Montana than she would a whole season here in wa.

[addicted2hunting]

I haven't yet had the chance to video my guy yet but here is constructuers shorthair that wouldn't point birds anymore because he was able to chase birds for a long time. I used a method my breeder taught me and helped me on my dog and we got this shorthair to this point in an afternoon. With pressure only applied at the correct timing and zero words said to the dog in the process, no whoa or anything. Basically just started with stop to flush drills then when he would stop at the flush of a bird we would bring him into the scent cone and flight the bird and if he gave chase just give him just enough ecollar stimm that he stops(not saying a word just stim) then release him and after about 6 birds he would point you could walk up flush the bird and shoot the blank gun and he would stay there till released. Of course it's not fully broke I guess but it's a dang good start. That's where my dog is at and I will take some vids as I start bird work again after 2 months of FF.

[addicted2hunting]

Sorry the video..

[addicted2hunting]

dang thing is upside down. if anyone can fix that'd be awesome.

[JODakota]

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well.  She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:

I personally love ugly dogs!