Buying a Boat - Help

[luvmystang67]

Okay, I know what everyone has to say about buying boats, I know its bad, I already have anxiety and don't even own one yet... So I'm reaching out for help.

I wanted a fishing boat with an outboard, of course the girlfriend looked at all of these boats that are semi in our price range and we've settled on a bayliner sunbridge style for camping and a little fishing.  I know, bayliner bash, gas bash, continue... I already know these things.

On to the important part.  All of the boat survey outfits are a few weeks out (like 3).  I'm a fairly handy shade tree mechanic (put new heads on my old truck, changed timing chains, put together honda 90 engines from the crank case up).  I feel like I'm competent to do my own check on this thing.  It has the 7.4 Mercruiser (454 chev) and bravo 2 outdrive.  It appears to perhaps have 1200 hours on it, which many say is a ton for a boat, depending on how it is maintained.  Fact is, I have no idea how it was maintained and am not super trustworthy of the seller, SO, I'm on my own.

I plan on doing a compression check myself, checking the oil for milkiness and the outdrive oil for milkiness as well.  If I get good compression numbers ~135psi+ within 10% or so of each other, the oils look good, and the sea trial goes well, does anyone have super critical things to watch out for or advice?  I know they have oil test kits you can buy, but I'm not sure where.  Anyone have compression check advise?  There's a little surface rust around the gasket for the riser/manifold connection, which I know isn't the greatest, is there any way to check these without tearing them apart?  Can I just put my hand on them while running?

Thanks, Stang

[Woodchuck]

454's are usually not big fans of high rpm unless built for it. I would ask questions about cruising speeds and rpm's at those speeds and if it sounds like it was wound up above 4500 rpm very much I would be nervous. 

[luvmystang67]

454's are usually not big fans of high rpm unless built for it. I would ask questions about cruising speeds and rpm's at those speeds and if it sounds like it was wound up above 4500 rpm very much I would be nervous. 

Basically, I trust this guy as far as I can throw his boat.  The tabs on it are from 2008.  Red flag, I know.  Basically, I'm trying to approach this as if I'm buying it from a dealer who got it from a drug impound auction.  I'm hoping any damage done by misuse will show up in the compression check.

A lot of boat people have told me "I dont know, I haven't seen many go for >2000 hours".

If this thing really is at 1200, but all the readings and indicators come back fine, if I maintain it properly and don't run the crap out of it, is there any reason it shouldn't hit 2000 hours?  If I change risers and manifolds when needed, rinse it out and treat it nice?  If nothing fails, is there any reason it should last less long than any other V8 out there?  My truck has over 4k hours and 150k miles.  I don't expect it to flop over anytime real soon.     Am I being dumb?

[CP]

Does it have freshwater cooling?

[luvmystang67]

Does it have freshwater cooling?

Yes, but as one mechanic pointed out, you'd never know if that has been there the entire life of the boat or if its been added sometime throughout its life... 

But yes, it has it right now.

[CP]

Drain some coolant and make sure it isn’t contaminated.  Any rust in it - walk away.

[Rick]

Buying a used boat without a surveyor giving it a clean bill of health is crazy IMO.

What's your plan for checking the hull for rot?

[Woodchuck]

Without much back history, I would be scared. 

[WSU]

Buy the boat you want and tell the girlfriend to get her own.  Beyond that, I would be scared to buy a boat that I had any questions about.  They are a big enough pain in the rear as it is.

[Buckmark]

I would walk just based on what you have told us, heck i would not even take it if it was free!!! 7yrs not used (assumed since the tab are that old) and that many hours....

If a deal sounds to good it most likely is.
If your gut tells you no then listen to it...

Break
Out
Another
Thousand

[Smokepole]

I would walk just based on what you have told us, heck i would not even take it if it was free!!! 7yrs not used (assumed since the tab are that old) and that many hours....

If a deal sounds to good it most likely is.
If your gut tells you no then listen to it...

Break
Out
Another
Thousand

I disagree.  I would run. 

[luvmystang67]

Here's my problem, I wouldn't feel good about buying ANY boat.  If I sold it to someone, I can tell them whatever I want.  That I ran it lightly, that it often, this/that/the other thing.  On any boat of that age you wont know those things about it.

If someone told me all of that, I checked the fluids, compression and everything else, I would probably feel warm and fuzzy about it, and all of the verbal part could be a lie.  Heck, half of the boats I look at in that age bracket dont even have hour meters and I would have no idea other than the compression check.

The reason I feel okay about going over it without a mechanic... is that I've talked to probably 5 in the last few days.  They said a compression check is better than what they do and the oil check either with the test kit or visual is all they do.  Other than that its just inspecting for condition and checking bilge pumps, lights and other stupid crap.  I am very confident I can do a compression check and both oils check.  The boat has been dry docked, at least recently.  The fiberglass appears to be in good shape and the transom appears to have no rot.  I'm just not quite sure what else a mechanic is really going to do for me.  I'm going to visually inspect the bellows and look for any saltwater intrusion during my sea trial.

So, aside from just being generally afraid of not having a mechanic go over it, can anyone help me with some real mechanical knowledge of other things that they would check?  Everyone I know who does boat surveys is at least 3 weeks out.  Every other boat we've bought has been without a mechanic OR a sea trial, just running on cups.  Not that it is the most brilliant choice, but thats what we've done.

Is there any reason if everything comes back good, and it runs good, that I shouldn't buy it?  Its not a SCREAMIN deal, its just a good reasonable deal for what we're looking for...

Just looking for serious input on things to check... I know the rest of the advice.  I think if anyone has a good feeling about a boat it is probably misguided   

[Rick]

Do you have a link to the boat in question?

[Hunterman]

Just from what you have said about the seller, I would walk away. Hell an oil change only takes a little while to make things look good. Find another boat.

Hunterman(Tony)

[cbond3318]

I recently traded for an older boat similar situation as what you have described. Much smaller boat, 78' 16' Beach craft with the 120 Mercruiser I/O. It had sat for a while and things I considered:
I checked the outdrive oil, owner said he had never checked it in the 2 years he owned it but had ran the boat a dozen times. Gear oil looked good, didn't smell burnt, no chunks of metal stuck to the drain plug.
checked the motor oil, looked slightly discolored but I took into account it had sat for a season and could have collected condensation as the owner said he hadn't changed it after he purchased the boat.
motor was ran for me with the cups, fired right up, had smooth idle and ran through RPMs smoothly, ( its just a small truck engine same rules apply). Water from cooling had good flow, exhaust smelled normal,
Hull looked good, floor in good shape, transom not rotted, no evidence of bleed water getting through the outdrive seals through the transom, no noticeable oil in the bilge or on interior of transom, no evidence of a leak from the engine, engine looked in decent appearance, no rust.

This is the first boat I have acquired and is obviously a scaled down version of what you are looking at but the logic still applies. Mine runs like a champ, gets on plane, cruises along nicely, no leaks no issues.....

and every time it take it out I feel like today is the day I find out I made the wrong choice Im still building trust in the boat. I think you know what to look for, just don't be intimidated because it is a boat. 

[Buckmark]

Stang per your descriptions and posts you have already talked yourself into buying it, so buy it.

You are a mechanically inclined guy, you can check it out.

Question, if it has not been licensed in 7yrs whats 3 weeks till a good survey can be done?

What kind of service records does the seller have??

You keep at the compression test, and that is important but you can tell if an engine is running good or not, if it has a compression problem in a single cylinder you can tell buy how it runs....even before pulling the plugs and checking....and im sure those plugs after 7yrs and 1500 hrs will come out easily. 

[FWilliams]

sounds like you are able to check out the basic mechanical stuff, but with a boat of that age and sitting that long do an oil analysis . the metal results are always suspect unless you have a baseline on the engine , but what you are looking for is signs of coolant and or chemicals, especially the ones for head gasket fix in a bottle etc. Blackstone will send you a kit for free and do the analysis for 25.00.

Now that being said, no matter what your decision, take someone with you when you check it out, another pair of eyes with out the emotional input you are feeling from wanting the boat, its easy to picture yourself on the open seas with troll rods in the water. instead you are in dry dock with the engine tore out of it. Also make sure and try to see if things like the alternator,starter , etc have been replaced with MARINE parts, with an inboard this is a huge safety issue and with that many hours on it some of those componets have probably been replaced.

[luvmystang67]

Stang per your descriptions and posts you have already talked yourself into buying it, so buy it.

You are a mechanically inclined guy, you can check it out.

Question, if it has not been licensed in 7yrs whats 3 weeks till a good survey can be done?

What kind of serncie records does the seller have??

Nope, I have certainly not talked myself into buying it.  I'm very much on the fence.  I'm just trying to look at evidence rather than having someone tell me they took good care of it (which I never put much value in anyway).  Seller said he put 2800 into it and has receipts from 2008, hasn't really used it much since.  I haven't checked those out yet.

I suppose what I'm challenging you guys for, the mechanically inclined ones that is, is what would they check in a marine survey or what would you check that I'm not planning to check.

Also, now when I go to sell a boat someday I'm going to make sure to tell everyone that I've always done routine maintenance, flushed it after every run, changed the oil every 3 months and all kinds of other fluff... it seems to hold a lot of weight here.  I'm not trying to bash popular forum advice here, I'm just looking for a more fact based approach rather than a verbal based approach.  Unless a boat is 1 previous owner, it is hard to say how much the seller's story is worth.  I need more to go on than that, even if it had a great back story.   

[CAMPMEAT]

Take it for a ride on the water.

[Bill W]

there's more than the motor that can have issues.  Body needs checked out for leaks, rot, cracks, etc.  Friend of mine bought a 26' hull a few years ago. After he got into it he found the wooden frame buried in the fiberglass had rot.  He ended up cutting it up with a chainsaw and throwing it away.

I would be leery of older Bayliners just because of the name. They were economically produced and potentially could have body issues.

[Buzz2401]

My buddy just replaced his 454 with 3000 hours on it and it ran perfect.  He dropped 40k on a new 8.1L bravo 3 package.  He was just tired of fixing everything attached to the 454.  THose motors will go a long time if maintained and not beat.

[Buckmark]

Service records speak volumes, even a large stack of recipts for maint items if doing your own work (fluids, filters etc etc).

You have really mentioned alot of the items to check/inspect, fluids, compression, leaks, bellows, seals, outdrive, steering, tilt/trim operation, overall condition of how the engine looks, oil check analyst if the guy will hold it for results to come back, bildge pump and hoses, starting/charging system test, hoses, electrical wiring at helm, gauge operation during cup test and sea trial (you are going to do an on the water test correct?) how does it shift during the sea trial, forward and reverse, how is it under load, light load and then full bore? Does it get on plane well? does it restart after shutting it off and letting it hot soak for 15-30mins? does the auto bildge work? how old is the gas in the tank if it has been sitting for years?

Also, no mention of it, but does it have a trailer> and if so what shape is it in?

[luvmystang67]

Doing a sea trial tomorrow, at least that is the plan.  Plan to run it up high and turn sharp while running to check out for noise in the gimbal bearing.  Going to check for any saltwater intrusion.  Going to check the bilge afterward for any evidence of water (its been dry docked at Dagmars for at least the last few years).  Currently no evidence for cracks anywhere around the outside, near the transom, under or around the outdrive.  The main stringers look good.  Honestly, if it weren't for the high hours on the meter and me not trusting the guys story (which he said he's always kept up on it, I just dont trust him), I probably wouldn't have even had second thoughts.  I find the 2008 license kind of suspicious.  He didn't seem to be worried about me running a compression check or anything, so it doesn't seem like he has anything to hide.  We'd be doing a professional survey if anyone in the world was available... I suppose I could wait, but there's some chance that someone else buys it in the meantime and at this point I feel like I'm doing enough diligence that a marine survey might not catch anything else.

Also, good advice for extra eyes and thanks for the suggestion on the internal components being marine grade.  I'm definitely not in a honeymoon phase, I have major boat buying anxiety that I think would only be cured with a brand new boat.  I cant afford one of those though.

[luvmystang67]

Service records speak volumes, even a large stack of recipts for maint items if doing your own work (fluids, filters etc etc).

You have really mentioned alot of the items to check/inspect, fluids, compression, leaks, bellows, seals, outdrive, steering, tilt/trim operation, overall condition of how the engine looks, oil check analyst if the guy will hold it for results to come back, bildge pump and hoses, starting/charging system test, hoses, electrical wiring at helm, gauge operation during cup test and sea trial (you are going to do an on the water test correct?) how does it shift during the sea trial, forward and reverse, how is it under load, light load and then full bore? Does it get on plane well? does it restart after shutting it off and letting it hot soak for 15-30mins? does the auto bildge work? how old is the gas in the tank if it has been sitting for years?

Also, no mention of it, but does it have a trailer> and if so what shape is it in?

No trailer, but I don't really want to store a boat at my house anyway.  I'd be Dagmars-ing it.  Thanks for the notes.  I will be sure to check the sit and restart after its warm.  I wouldn't have thought to check that.  Thanks.

[whacker1]

It has sat for awhile, so you will need to change the impeller as soon as you buy it.  Not sure if it is on a separate housing or in the outdrive.  Mercruiser has designed them both ways, so I would do a little research to find out what it will take to change the impeller.  I try to change my impeller every other year, so they don't dry and crack.  $35 for the part, labor can be tedious on certain models/designs.

Not sure if you actually mentioned the age, but based on the conversation, so far I am guessing that this is a 23 + foot late 80's or mid 90's boat.  Along with the hours and length of time it sat.....fluids will all need to be changed, just so you know what you have.  $100

To make it reliable, obviously you are going to want to give it a complete tune up.  plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter, carburetor rebuild, etc.  $100

Has the gas separated?  7 years of sitting is a long time.  $few hundred

tires on the trailer are probably weather checked if there is a trailer, and will need to be replaced.  $75-100 x5  trailer brakes?

Starter?  $150

Alternator? 150
 
It will probably need new batteries, or at least to make it reliable it will.  $100 x 2 or maybe 3.  Does the boat already have a battery switch, if not you are going to want to wire one in

Throttle cables often rust in place when sitting on the west side for long periods of time, so you would consider replacing a throttle and depending on type of steering linkage, check all those connections for rust and corrosion.  new throttle cable probably go for $80-100

If it is dry docked, do you have a trailer?  do you plan to moor it somewhere?

What comes with the boat as far as accessories?  This is the $1000 I didn't plan on when we bought ours ten years ago.
anchor, life jackets, fenders, mooring lines, depth finder, fish finder, crab pots, down riggers, kicker motor, safety stuff, etc.


A buddy of mine just bought a 31 foot sea ray from the mid to late 80's, and he had to refinish all the wood, replace the window seals, pump the gas out of one tank 5 gallons at a time, because it had separated, and a lot of the stuff I mentioned above.  Granted it has twin 350's, so a little more headache than what you are getting into. 

It could be a lot of fun, but go at it with caution and budget for the items I mentioned above.

Ours is a 1998 with a 350 and we have about 400 hours on it, but we only use it in the summer in Eastern WA.  We have had very few issues, but we have lost an alternator, starter, throttle handle, throttle cable, impeller, anti-syphon valve on the fuel tank, replaced all the tires on the trailer, and miscellaneous upholstery repair.

2000 hours is where I have been told they need to be rebuilt, so I think there could be lots of life left in this bayliner.

[luvmystang67]

Thanks whacker.

Its a 1992, 28'.

The water pump is on the engine for this model as part of the Bravo 2.  Slightly more reliable and definitely easier to fix than the alpha one (if you're in the water especially).  New fluids would be one of the first things on the list.  I've watched new cap and rotors completely change the way an engine runs and would probably look into that as well.  Fuel is a good question, I'll have to ask and check.

If the alternator and starter work, I'll probably not be replacing them right away.  I feel like sitting doesn't hurt these as bad (personal opinion).  It has 2 trojan 6 volts for house batteries that I'm hoping are okay still.  I've got some optima blue tops already saved up for starting.

I'll check cables and see what I can notice visually and pay attention to it when shifting.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.   

I've got crappy versions of everything else except buoys and lines.  I'm a garage sale fan so there's a good chance I'll work to acquire those prior to next boating season at the poor man's rate.

[Mudman]

Had an inboard once.  Mistake.  454 sure is thirsty. All I can say from description is I wouldn't want it for 1$.  Cant afford what it would cost a guy.  Outdrives are worse to deal with than the engine.  If you have anxiety now this boat will make it worse.  Keep in mind anything marine cost double.  Either pay a marine shop to check it out-and if its a good deal you can afford to do it or run...  Those bearings/breaks in trailer need attention after sitting for a decade.  Water pump might be on way out from sitting.  Seals in an engine dry out and sprouts leaks after sitting.  Rust in cylinder walls hard on rings.  Was it stored inside and prepped to sit, or occasionally started-with water to outdrive?  prolly not.  Winterized outdrive?

[h20hunter]

Stang....a bit off topic but are you keeping your little run around boat? If not I know a young man that he and his dad have talked about getting a boat that he could run around in...might be perfect for them.

[Rick]

Don't forget all the fuel lines. If its had gas with ethanol sitting in the lines for 7 years the fuel lines are likely shot.

Ethanol also eats away at fiberglass fuel tanks. Bayliners have had fiberglass tanks over the years.

[Rich_S]

Just a couple of things which I have found can be trouble spots.

1. Rust or corrosion on the lower side of the engine compartment, specifically rust of the oil pan leading to a leak in the pan or corrosion on the motor which runs the outdrive up and down, the starter, etc.

2. Engine surveyors check the engine. Hull surveyors check the hull. But, especially on larger boats, nobody seems to check the auxiliary systems. Furnace, sewage, autopilots, bilge pumps, compasses, radios, and so forth. Repair to these can get real pricy.

3. The compression check should be a differential check - not just compression. Get a good set of gauges and apply air pressure to each cylinder, checking not only for leakage but where the leakage is. i.e. intake, exhaust, rings.

4. Be real sure the transom has no internal rot. I hate trying to chisel the plywood out of the fiberglass to replace it. I just did it on my 1964 Evinrude Tri-hull and used many many swear words.

5. Check the engine mounts. GM engines seem to break these.

I hope it all checks out.

[whacker1]

Ok, now that I know the year, I can be of some additional help.

I don't know the specific years, but the 1994 SeaRay 27' with a Bravo 1 or Alpha drive (I believe) client's boat, had a accordion style hose that all the cables came through the transom in.  It would allow the flex of both the cables and accordion hose material with the lowering and raising of the outdrive.  This rubber accordion design would get dry, brittle and crack, and then the boat would take water on.  First as a drip and then by the time they noticed it the bilge pumps were running for a few minutes with about a 2 minute break in between.  Good thing it was hooked up to shore power, otherwise it would have been at the bottom of the lake still hooked to the dock.

6 volt batteries?  or was that a typo?  I haven't seen those on a boat of that era.

[Buckmark]

3. The compression check should be a differential check - not just compression. Get a good set of gauges and apply air pressure to each cylinder, checking not only for leakage but where the leakage is. i.e. intake, exhaust, rings.

*
If the compression checks out good on an engine no need for a leak down test, waste of time and money..
If the compression comes back weak, or one cylinder is low leak it down, but remember it needs engine work regardless if that is the case...

[luvmystang67]

H20, keeping the little boat for now.  Its too easy to own not to keep.  And I'm kind of proud of that one since I kind of "made it".

Rich, I'll check those that I can.  Not sure how well I can check the sewage.  I'll check the bilges because it has a washdown hose I can use to fill the bilge a little if I verify there's no water in there after we run. 

I don't know anyone who runs a leakdown test on a boat as a standard procedure unless there's an abnormality in the compression check.  I agree this this would be beneficial, but I'd have to get additional equipment for that and it'd take a bit longer (doesn't the cylinder have to be at TDC for that)?

I'll poke the stringers and transom from the inside, but everything in there visually looked very good.  I'll double check the mounts.  I've replaced those on cars and it wasn't a blast.  Thanks for your input

Rick, it has a stainless tank.  Good note on the lines.

[h20hunter]

Right on. I don't know enough about big boats like this to help but if you buy it and it is a pit we can just go sit in it and drink beer.

Good luck with it.

[davyboy]

It sounds as if you got an idea of what you are looking at as far as engine goes. There is way more things to look at other than the engine. I will use myself as a very good example. Was in the same boat as you are {pun intended}  when buying my 1st used boat. I got completely screwed over on it. The motor was in excellent shape and even had all the receipts from maintenance done...however, I did not pay much attention to the flooring and the transom. The floor and stringers was completely rotted out. I only figured it out after running it around on the lake and noticed a soft spot at the back of the boat when I couldn't find where water was coming in it. Paid a guy to help me rip the floor out around the soft spot and that's when we noticed all of the foam under the floor was completely saturated with water. The boat was really heavy from being so water logged. Once water gets past the fiberglass the woods acts like a sponge and will keep absorbing it and it will travel. The worst part was the transom. It was completely rotted out as well. being an I/o the motor has to come out to replace that, This is by no means a easy job to do for a shade tree mechanic. I licked my wounds cut my losses and sold that money pit. So just make sure after u check the motor out and IF it passes, spend just as much time looking at the structure of the boat as well. bring an ice pick with you and poke around on the transom to check for rot. open up the ski locker and poke around on the stringers. If anything feels soft walk away. Looks for crack in the gel coat where the outdrive bolts to the engine. This is a good way to check if the motor has been flexing do to a weak transom. Good luck with the boat. I learned my lesson on that boat and made the one I just bought much easier.

[cooltimber]

don't forget your dwell meter,u can check all electrical currants.

[Rich_S]

I don't know anyone who runs a leakdown test on a boat as a standard procedure unless there's an abnormality in the compression check.  I agree this this would be beneficial, but I'd have to get additional equipment for that and it'd take a bit longer (doesn't the cylinder have to be at TDC for that)?

Yes on the TDC and the crank has to be held in place or the air pressure will rotate it unless it is precisely at TDC. It is useful in detecting slow headgasket leaks which may not be seen on a simple compression test. Leaks into the cooling system seem to be epidemic on boats and any exhaust system faults get expensive real quick. I bought a differential tester at HarborFreight tools for about $50 mainly for use on my homebuilt airplane. And it doesn't even have headgaskets! Or heads, per se, for that matter.

[luvmystang67]

Update for interested parties:

Thanks for all of your input.  Some were very helpful.

I feel like it is really hard to mask problems on a boat and usually there are signs that things are bad. Previously, the guy just seemed sketchy, but when I went to look today there were problems with the boat, which were somewhat anticipated.

There was some water in the bilge after being in the water for only an hour.  When it idled for 15 min the engine was overheating and I had to tell him to turn it off after the risers were so hot I couldn't touch them.  The outdrive wouldnt lower.. but seemed to be trying.  He mentioned there were some title concerns because it was in a previous owners name still...

SOOO, not buying that boat.  Now I've got 99 problems and a boat aint one... he has 99 problems with one boat that isn't mine.  Phew... I think I'll sit and count my money tonight.

Thanks again.

[Taco280AI]

Sounds like the owner was trying to unload a troubled boat onto someone else and make it their problem.

[whacker1]

Wow....sounds like a boat that was stored for awhile that didn't get the TLC it needs. 

sucks to be that guy.  best of luck on the boat hunt.

[Ellensburg]

I bought my first boat this year and its probably the best investment I've ever made.

I looked on and off for 2 years. I am super cheap, and wanted a great deal.

I ended up finally finding a 1992 - 19 foot seaswirl with a 150 horse johnson outboard for $2900.


Did a lot of work on my own like installing a fish finder, installing downrigger mounts for the narrow gunnels and some minor gel-coat repair.

It takes some time, but my boat is a fishing/crabbing machine now and I didn't spend a lot on it at all! Just be patient. You can find some really good deals in the off season.

[rwl77]

I would run lots of boats that fit the bill of what youre looking for

[Blacklab]

Right on. I don't know enough about big boats like this to help but if you buy it and it is a pit we can just go sit in it and drink beer.

Good luck with it.

LMAO!!!