Age class bucks?

[tgomez]

 I think that from next deer season on I will only shoot mature 5 plus year old bucks. I have never hunted for only age class bucks, and have never been a "trophy hunter".  Lately I don't get the same enjoyment of shooting basket rack 4s, and small forkhorns as I use to when I was younger. I enjoy being out in God's country and just being around the deer in general. Am I wrong in thinking this way, am I evolving as a hunter? I enjoy taking out friends and family more than getting a deer myself anymore. I have been fortunate enough to put a tag on a buck for 21 years straight, and enjoy eating the meat, but think I need more of a challenge. I am also realizing that it does the overall deer quality wonders if you do let them grow up to their full potential. I will still buy a tag and help fund the wildlife of Washington regardless, but I have been giving this some serious thought lately. Anyone else ever have this dilemma in their hunting carrers? Maybe I should start hunting Elk instead. Please give me some friendly advice my fellow hunters, as I am starting to feel like a wandering hunting soul. Thanks for your time, Trevor.

[fishnfur]

Try Blacktail, or try it again.  You'll appreciate the difficulty of the hunt and the elusiveness of the quarry. 

Perhaps archery instead - that seems to be the natural evolution for many experienced hunters.

Limiting yourself to an age class may just end up being an exercise in frustration, but I'm not familiar with the deer population where you hunt.

[teamhughes2007]

I've been hunting for 10 years and have 11 bucks.  Although I love the taste and doing all the processing, I don't hunt because I need the meat (family raises cows); I hunt because I love spending time with my brother and dad, I love the challenge, the outdoors, the adrenaline rush, etc.  However, I too have wrestled with this.  Three years ago I stalked in on a decent, young buck and shot it (I just realized it's the buck from my profile photo)...not because I wanted to but because I didn't want to be the only one in camp that didn't fill a tag...pride.   That hunt left a bad taste in my mouth (not the venison, that was awesome!) so since then I have focused on taking mature bucks; which I have and I've had a blast.  I got over the whole pride thing about filling the tag and now I'm okay coming back empty handed.

This has also helped me with my hunting skills...going from shooting the first legal buck I saw to being able to pull up and just watch the deer to see what they're up to and how they react to different situations.

Now, fast forward to this year.  I discovered that several family friends would jump at the chance to have ground venison; not only for the quality of meat but as a cost savings to them.  So, now I'm hunting for the thrill of the hunt but also for food for multiple families.  I am still going to hunt for a mature buck but now will be just as content coming home with a younger one because I'll be able to bless several families with it...hunting with a purpose beyond myself.  Anyways, that's my two cents.

[Grizman]

I find this an interesting topic.  I have hunted deer and elk for 57 years.  Four about 40 of those years I hunted in two states and occasionally three states.  About 10 years ago I got to the point that the meat was not being used and the process of shooting a Spike or Cow elk, or a medium buck began to loose its thrill.  I still totally love being out in the woods and hunting but I needed a change.  I received a Game Camera for Christmas and boy did that open a new style of hunting for me!  For the past several years, I set out three or four cams in the area I now live and hunt.  I see some very nice bucks and going into the season, I target one or two of them and will not settle for anything else.  I am lucky to be able to hunt everyday and I live in the middle of some excellent public land hunting.  So, Over the season I see and pass on a fair number of medium bucks and consintrated only on my targeted bucks.  Over the past several years, I have killed my targeted deer about 40% on the time.  But, I hunt with a totally new outlook and intensity.  I save a little meat and donate the rest. 
I have a shed full of deer and elk racks and all the memories they bring.  Today, I have not problem at all telling another hunter that I hunted 20+ days, never pulled the trigger, and had a GREAT Season.

[boneaddict]

You picked a bad year to try to change.   Most of them were killed this fall.  Extreme success this year means tougher pickings next season.

[Seabass]

Pick up a bow.......

[High Climber]

I was talking with an older gentleman around 70 or so at the gym this morning, he had some insight on the way a hunter evolves... Here is the cliff note version. He said there are four stages of a hunters "legacy" for lack of a better word. 1) any 2) most 3) Size 4) Sharing. His take on it was a hunter starts out just wanting to take any legal animal, once that is accomplished the hunter wants to take an animal every year. After a while the hunter moves his focus away from just filling a tag to taking the largest representative animal in the area he is working.  The final stage he describes as passing along the tools of the trade and just being out there with friends and family, sharing his passion for the hunt and the outdoors. I've been thinking about that conversation all day and I believe is is pretty close to the mark. By his theory I think I am coming to the end of stage two and moving towards stage three. Sounds like you are already there... Happy hunting

[boneaddict]

Old timers seem to know their stuff.

[ShaneTyTrey]

Old timers seem to know their stuff.

 

[blindluck]

tgomez- I totally agree, as we mature as sportsman we strive for more challenge. I too just love being amongst the wildlife watching and waiting for a trophy buck, I feel just as successful letting smaller ones walk in hopes of a giant to suddenly appear, and at the end of the season if I don't score, I know I have learned more experiencing the long days afield than shooting a small one opening day and hanging out in camp the rest of the hunt.

[buckmaster_wa]

I believe this evolution happens to all hunters. I remember when I first started hunted I was happy shooting the first legal animal I saw. Then it moved on to shooting mature bucks. I still basically shoot the first legal buck I see in Washington, but only because i hunt here for the meat. When I am hunting out of state I try to harvest a good mature buck.

I have found a new passion in hunting and that is the excitement of putting new hunters on game. I have assisted 10 different hunters in getting there first kill, and that is nearly as exciting as me getting a kill myself. Plus, it helps the hunting community as a whole to get more people involved in the great outdoors.

[Dan-o]

I wonder what percentage of deer in Washington are 5+ year old bucks?

I'm thinking it might be some fraction of 1%?

Might have to look at several hundred deer before finding one that meets that spec?   

[jackelope]

I was talking with an older gentleman around 70 or so at the gym this morning, he had some insight on the way a hunter evolves... Here is the cliff note version. He said there are four stages of a hunters "legacy" for lack of a better word. 1) any 2) most 3) Size 4) Sharing. His take on it was a hunter starts out just wanting to take any legal animal, once that is accomplished the hunter wants to take an animal every year. After a while the hunter moves his focus away from just filling a tag to taking the largest representative animal in the area he is working.  The final stage he describes as passing along the tools of the trade and just being out there with friends and family, sharing his passion for the hunt and the outdoors. I've been thinking about that conversation all day and I believe is is pretty close to the mark. By his theory I think I am coming to the end of stage two and moving towards stage three. Sounds like you are already there... Happy hunting

I like this. I feel like I'm definitely in stage 3 and beginning stage 4, and it seems like I may be there a little early.
 

[jackelope]

I wonder what percentage of deer in Washington are 5+ year old bucks?

I'm thinking it might be some fraction of 1%?

Might have to look at several hundred deer before finding one that meets that spec?   

I think that totally depends where you are in the state.

[bobcat]

As long as I still have my kids living with me I'll be in the stage of wanting to kill an animal every year, and as many as possible, regardless of antler size. I only pass on spikes because they don't have enough meat on them.

But I agree with what others have said- if you're wanting to just hunt more and be challenged more, and don't care about meat in the  freezer, switch to archery hunting. You could even buy the multi-season tag and hunt all the seasons with your bow.

[Dan-o]

I wonder what percentage of deer in Washington are 5+ year old bucks?

I'm thinking it might be some fraction of 1%?

Might have to look at several hundred deer before finding one that meets that spec?   

I think that totally depends where you are in the state.

I am sure you're right.

Where I hunt deer, few get past 4 years old (but there are tons of deer).

I'm sure that in the nastiest, remotest Black Tail country, the percentage runs higher than it does where I hunt.....   But still not that high, I'd wager.   I mean, even in a relatively unhunted herd, what percentage would be 5+ year old bucks?     

I just wonder what the statewide percentage would be.

I'm sure your guess is as good or better than mine.

[The scout]

I think blacktail is tough to guess, even when they are in velvet they aren't out in the open much. If it wasn't for trail camera's I would agree about the number's but the 5yr old plus are almost completely nocturnal. I would say there is definitely more than most people think

[tgomez]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I am going to try to hunt blactail deer next season, I have never hunted for one as the deer in my neck of the woods are whitetail and mule deer. I have already tried archery and was successful for all five years. I enjoyed the longer seasons of archery, and the fact you are using a limited range weapon. However I didn't like wounding a few deer during that five year period, and not finding them or having to wait for an hour or more while they died. I went back to modern because I believe it is a quicker and more humane kill. I have nothing against archery, it just isn't for me, but it is very exhilarating. As hunters we seek that new experience, and maybe I just need a new quary to go after. I really had a blast getting my secound bear this year, and September is probably my favorite time to be outdoors. I love to deer hunt still, maybe I need to hunt a late season as I haven't had a tag after the early season since I was 22. Being out in the rut(with a tag) may be what I need as well. Thanks again for everyone's time and comments. God bless and happy holidays!

[huntnphool]

 I've been in "stage 4" for quite a while now, even though I will still pull the trigger on any "mature" buck that presents the opportunity. I just like being out and sharing/enjoying the experience anymore, tagging something myself is just a bonus.

[7mmfan]

Those stages make perfect sense. I noticed a dramatic change in my hunting mentality the last couple of years. Once I got married, and began the process of settling down, the idea of eating only wild game meat became very appealing. I've been fortunate enough to accomplish this now for 5 years and I noticed this year that the urge to harvest an animal was extremely strong. I knew our freezer was getting low and I wanted to "provide". At the same time, I am pulling away from the any legal animal mentality to a point. I will no longer kill very young mule deer with good genetics, those 1.5 or 2.5 year old deer with great genes get whacked every year and I've decided I'm going to give them a chance, and rely on my skills as a hunter to kill a more mature animal.

I also started hunting with my 14 year old nephew this year and had another dramatic shift in mentality. I never thought twice during elk season about getting him set up in front me on the sticks when we got on animals. I'd have been WAY happier with him killing an animal than myself.

Tgomez, I am also with you on the weapon choice. I hunted archery for a long time, 10+ years, and killed a few animals and passed on lots more opportunities that weren't perfect. I know how effective super sharp Savora broadheads are, but the idea of an animal running from a shot and not dying instantly didn't appeal to me. I know for a fact that I can drop an animal in his tracks with my 7mag everytime, and I am much more at ease inside knowing he died instantly.

Being human is about evolving and taking what we learn throughout life and applying it to the years we have left. Everyone does it, and I think that being more selective and methodical is also the natural evolution of humans as we age. You're right on track
 

[idahohuntr]

I definitely enjoy the sharing aspect more than anything.  Helping others fill tags as well as donating meat from my hunts. 

I see a regression of the stages discussed above in some hunters.  My grandpa's last deer was a little whitetail doe...in his 80s and with a lifetime of bucks and bulls you would have thought it was his first deer!

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[fishnfur]

tgomez - I think Blackies are a great idea.  Perhaps even add the age class restriction to your game plan.  I believe that after your years and years of experience, you'll find the younger bucks too easy, even with the difficult conditions.  Perhaps a three-point or maybe a 4.5 year old age-class standard would make the chase a bit more epic.

Regarding the percentage of five-year-old bucks within the population of deer, anyone's guess is probably a pretty good answer, especially for Blacktail, which are notoriously hard to count in scientific studies.  My copy of the book "BTs of Western WA", authored by The State back around 1960 has statistics of hunter success for 1956 from the Clemons Tree Farm, somewhere around Pe El I think, (probably owned by Weyco now - (turns out, it was then too)).  Those stats say that 28% of the bucks taken were aged at 5.5 years old or older, base on dentition analysis.  That means that the actual population of that age class is probably higher, since we know that they don't all get harvested. Also, we're talking about the smart ones that got caught.  Certainly there are significantly more smart ones that didn't get shot. 

It is impossible to factor in variables such as how many deer were passed on waiting for that big one to show, number killed by other means, etc.   Similar evaluations of age classes can be inferred by studying the hunter success reports on the WDFW website and guessing on the age based on the antler points (which is not valid, but all we have).    There is likely a higher percentage of five-plus year old bucks than suspected for muleys and WTs as well.  As we know, they don't go from two points to massive fours in just one year, yet we see photos of these bucks showing up every year on the forum.  The big boys just evaporate once the shooting starts and stay hidden till the rut starts.  Even then, they may limit their daylight activities significantly.

Ultimately, tgomez should have plenty of opportunity to narrow down his standards for success in the future.  I'm looking forward to hearing what happens next year.

[grundy53]

I think blacktail is tough to guess, even when they are in velvet they aren't out in the open much. If it wasn't for trail camera's I would agree about the number's but the 5yr old plus are almost completely nocturnal. I would say there is definitely more than most people think

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[Gringo31]

A cool thread. 

I find myself a little uncomfortable realizing my heart isn't in state 3 anymore.  Love stage 4 even though I struggle with losing the drive of the previous stages.

[Grizman]

Posted earlier to this interesting conversation.  Thought I would add this description of the 5 stages from an article I read years ago.  Also, I would like to add that there is no "normal schedule" to going thru these stages.  I have hunted for nearly 50 years with several of the same guys.  Most of us have progressed thru the stages to stage 5.  A few are in different stages and one or two I swear are still in stage 2 after 50 years!

1.   The Shooter Stage: This is when the hunter begins. They need to have some success and be able to have a level of accomplishment.

2.   The Limiting Out Stage: From stage one most hunters progress to this stage. In stage two the hunter's goal is to harvest as many animals as is legally possible.

3.   The Trophy Stage: In this stage the hunter has enough knowledge of his quarry that he begins to exhibit selectivity in his hunt. Bigger antlers and a keen knowledge of stewarding the whitetail resource begin to take center stage in the deer hunter's life at this point.

4.   The Method Stage: By the time a hunter reaches Stage 4 he is beginning to mellow out. With many autumns under his belt he begins to become more interested in how he hunts. Understanding deer behavior also becomes paramount during this stage.

5.   The Sportsman Stage: By the time a hunter hits this stage he truly knows who he is. He knows deer behavior, has killed many deer, has probably become involved in the preservation of hunting and makes a conscious effort to see that hunting is passed on to the next generation. This is also the stage when many deer hunters become involved as managers of their own deer hunting properties. I've often viewed this stage as the reflective stage.

[fishnfur]

Funny!  Without ever killing a deer, the start of my fifth season had me somewhere between stage one and three.  Early in the season, if I see buck, even though my plans may be to exclude spikes and small two points, I might pop a shot off at a buck that shows out of nowhere just on the excitement of finding the buck out and about.  My plans to ignore spikes an small two points may hold water or be tossed out based on the situation.  Given a chance to really look at a buck and decide, I think I could pass on a 3 year old.  Having it show up in front of me out of nowhere - all bets are off.  Jeeze I love hunting! 

Perhaps that's a solid stage one?