Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[JDHasty]

Furthermore, when I attempted to explore this topic the discussion went in the direction of "poke a hole in the right place and the animal dies."  This suggests to me that the NOVICE who came looking for advice could leave with the impression that banging away with a magazine full of ammo was a viable option, particularly considering that one of the individuals posting on this thread brought "dumping a magazine" to the table and it was not brought into the discussion in jest. 

The moderator had the good sense to clean up that thread and suggest that the discussion was better suited for a separate thread.  So here it is. 

[grundy53]

Okay, so forgive me if this has already been said, but what's the furthest shot any of you would take on an elk with your AR-15?

It depends on the caliber/round. How far would you take an elk with a Remington 700?

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Well I didn't want theoretical. I was wondering how far would anyone on here shoot at an elk with an AR that they actually own, whatever the cartridge may be. Just curious, don't want to argue.

I don't know how you expect to not get a theoretical answer when you ask such a broad undefined question. Maybe you should be more specific.

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[bobcat]

Okay, so forgive me if this has already been said, but what's the furthest shot any of you would take on an elk with your AR-15?

It depends on the caliber/round. How far would you take an elk with a Remington 700?

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Well I didn't want theoretical. I was wondering how far would anyone on here shoot at an elk with an AR that they actually own, whatever the cartridge may be. Just curious, don't want to argue.

I don't know how you expect to not get a theoretical answer when you ask such a broad undefined question. Maybe you should be more specific.

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It was a simple question- basically just what the title of this thread is.

I did get an answer, 550 yards. Which to me is max range for any bolt action rifle that I own.

[JDHasty]

Okay, so forgive me if this has already been said, but what's the furthest shot any of you would take on an elk with your AR-15?

It depends on the caliber/round. How far would you take an elk with a Remington 700?

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Well I didn't want theoretical. I was wondering how far would anyone on here shoot at an elk with an AR that they actually own, whatever the cartridge may be. Just curious, don't want to argue.

I don't know how you expect to not get a theoretical answer when you ask such a broad undefined question. Maybe you should be more specific.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

It was a simple question- basically just what the title of this thread is.

I did get an answer, 550 yards. Which to me is max range for any bolt action rifle that I own.

I concur and I own a lot of bolt action big game rifles, but the one I always grab is a McMillan stocked Model 70 in 300 Wby.  I just would not trust that a 200 grain Nosler Partition would perform on a shoulder hit out past that range.  Unlike some here, I have a lot of respect for an elk or mule deer's toughness and tenacity for life and their ability to escape with a solid shoulder hit when not broken down.   

[JDHasty]

It seems that some are reading a lot more into what JD is saying. In general I agree with his posts. How can you not? It also depends to some extent to what actual distance are we talking about here? 400 yards is a long ways, and most guys have no business shooting elk that far. But the title of this thread says "past 400 yards." So if we're talking 500, 600, and further, well that's something else entirely and would require a little more rifle than what we're taking about here.

I have shot at enough rockchucks and seen enough rockchucks shot at by people who don't just claim to be good, they have won the hardware to back up that claim shooting high power, silhouette, bench rest and other disciplines wherein doping the wind comes into play to have an opinion on that subject that is based on decades of practical experience. 

The fact that one individual here claims: It's 400 yards dude not 1400 yards.  Honestly, any shooter who knows his rig can bang that shot all day every day.  In the wind, in the rain, in the heat, or in the cold.  It's just not that difficult.  Strongly suggests to me that this individual does not have much practical experience shooting in windy conditions.  The reason I say that is because the only people I have ever heard make such an outlandish claim have not had a lot of practical experience shooting under windy conditions when someone else was keeping score.  Kinda like the guy who claims to never miss on flushing pheasant in the field, but haas trouble breaking sixteen targets in a round of trap.  There was no one keeping score in the former. 

What also comes into play in the field is that big game hunting is not bench shooting and being able to shoot prone or even sitting using a bipod is not something that anyone can count on.  Shooting resting off a fence post, resting on a limb and especially off hand makes shooting a first shot into one or two MOA of where a shooter wants it to land quite unlikely.

I see you are still judging others based on your skill sets.

How was Christmas?

No, what I am questioning is the JUDGEMENT of joining a thread posted by a NOVICE hunter who was seeking advice and posting information that could easily be interpreted by that NOVICE hunter as suggesting that if he were to go with a 6.5G that he is good to go at far longer range than they have any business shooting at big game with with an AR based platform.

 

[Karl Blanchard]

Okay, so forgive me if this has already been said, but what's the furthest shot any of you would take on an elk with your AR-15?

It depends on the caliber/round. How far would you take an elk with a Remington 700?

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Well I didn't want theoretical. I was wondering how far would anyone on here shoot at an elk with an AR that they actually own, whatever the cartridge may be. Just curious, don't want to argue.

I don't know how you expect to not get a theoretical answer when you ask such a broad undefined question. Maybe you should be more specific.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

It was a simple question- basically just what the title of this thread is.

I did get an answer, 550 yards. Which to me is max range for any bolt action rifle that I own.

  You basically summed it up bobcat.  Know YOUR personal limitations with the equipment YOU have.  Even a novice that has half a brain can figure that out.

And to answer your previous question, i think there are many reasons to hunting with an AR platform.  Modularity, fast follow ups, familiarity, etc.  I have a friend who switched over completely to AR'S for all his guns because they were all the same.  Same trigger, same stock, same accessories.  Didn't matter what gun he grabbbed, he was comfortable with it.

I started using an AR for predator hunting because of the follow up factor.  My success went WAY up on doubles when I could be right back on a second dog without having to come off target to cycle the bolt.  Farthest dog with the .223 was 471 yards by the way.  Super unethical pot shot of course.

[bobcat]

I've never owned an AR and probably never will, but they do seem like the perfect predator hunting rifle. If I ever get one it will be for that purpose.

[Biggerhammer]

Novice hunter, come on! My friends 12 year old son has shot bear at 680 yards. Bang Flop, done deal. People who haven't spent their lives in the distance shooting world have a hard time comprehending it.

[JDHasty]

I've never owned an AR and probably never will, but they do seem like the perfect predator hunting rifle. If I ever get one it will be for that purpose.

I have three.  I shot high power with a Competition HBar and a Match HBar and own a Remington R15 that I use for predator hunting and all three are sub MOA accurate and they work well for that purpose out to quite a long way off and a coyote is one tough customer.  The only thing done to them is to swap out the triggers for Guiseley triggers and I like the platform. 

[bobcat]

Novice hunter, come on! My friends 12 year old son has shot bear at 680 yards. Bang Flop, done deal. People who haven't spent their lives in the distance shooting world have a hard time comprehending it.

Yes, that kind of distance IS hard to comprehend. I've been hunting for 35 years and my furthest shot on a big game animal is 320 yards. Now that I'm going to Wyoming every year there's a good possibility I may get the chance to extend that by just a bit. But even out there I would never try 680 yards.

[coachcw]

so lets assume that many experts have come up with the magical minimum foot lbs of ke for deer is 800 lbs of ke. that being said with a quality round a 6.5 grendals efficient range is 550-600 yards and a .260 rem is 700-750 and a .308 is 750-800 yards with factory nosler accubonds .... I'm pretty sure those could be stretched a bit through vlds and hand loads . last I checked you could get a ar platform in all those calibers .   

[rtspring]

Here are some facts

1.  Most hunters cant shoot 400 yards period! No matter the shooting position or weapon!

2. Most weapons are far more accurate than the shooter!

3. I took a bull on the wetside in 2008 at 562 yards, with a basic setup .300 RUM. The bull was facing away and I shot him in the neck, 3 people seen me do it. DEAD ELK

4. Id rock an elk at 400 with an AR platform if I had shot it before and knew how to shoot it well...

5. Karl, Coach can shoot!!!  You had best believe they can! I would put that 6.5 up against any rifle out there!

6. The kill area on a bull elk is huge!  But yet many people hit them in the leg, guts, ass, and so on!  Its not the rifle 90 percent of the time its the shooter!

[Biggerhammer]

Here are some facts

1.  Most hunters cant shoot 400 yards period! No matter the shooting position or weapon!

2. Most weapons are far more accurate than the shooter!

3. I took a bull on the wetside in 2008 at 562 yards, with a basic setup .300 RUM. The bull was facing away and I shot him in the neck, 3 people seen me do it. DEAD ELK

4. Id rock an elk at 400 with an AR platform if I had shot it before and knew how to shoot it well...

5. Karl, Coach can shoot!!!  You had best believe they can! I would put that 6.5 up against any rifle out there!

6. The kill area on a bull elk is huge!  But yet many people hit them in the leg, guts, ass, and so on!  Its not the rifle 90 percent of the time its the shooter!

AMEN !!!!

[DaveMonti]

I love how this thread is all just a big black and white argument.  Nobody will win this one. 

The truth is that it's all a shade of grey (yes, I just did impose the "shade of grey" argument!).  Personally, I do have ethics which I will impose on others.  Anyone who says "My ethics are mine and I don't care what you do, your ethics are yours" is just not recognizing what goes on in everyone's life every day.

If you were hunting with someone unexperienced, and they wanted to shoot at a mule deer at 500+ yards with "marginal" caliber and that hunter said "I'm just going to hold over a few feet, see if I hit him!", would you sit there and say "Hey, your ethics, not mine, fire away."  I doubt it.  You can all sit there and speak to every individual situation between bullets, calibers, experience, wind, etc., but when it comes down to it, my guess that everyone has said at some point, "Uh buddy, that's not a real good idea" and "imposed" their ethics on someone else, in a myriad of situations, based on their own experience and judgment. 

I do feel a responsibility to bring my ethics into play when it appears something unethical might occur.  I don't go around looking to boss everyone around, but everyone imposes their ethics on others.  If you raised a child, how did you not?  If you've given advice, how did you not impose some sort of ethics into the conversation?  Some people, like myself, are paid to have ethics and review the work of others to make sure what they are proposing is in fact "ethical".  If not, someone could lose their life.  Not that someone WILL lose their life, but someone could.  It's not as simple as one OR the other, it's all probability, or shades of whatever color you want to go with.  Same with shooting at long ranges with any caliber, the results aren't guaranteed before you pull the trigger, the final results are a shade of probability based on hundreds of factors. 

JDHasty has his ethics.  It works for him, and I don't recall him saying "YOU will not shoot at an animal over xxx yards with an AR, and if you do, you're a -insert personal insult-"  It is also obvious that JDHasty feels it unethical to shoot at any animal at a long distance by rapid firing and hoping to hit something.  This is right for JD.  For you, you might say "I hate coyotes" and be fine with emptying a magazine from a .223 at 500 yards in an attempt to kill a coyote running across an clearing.  Would you do the same with a deer, elk, bear, moose, lion, turkey?  Would you allow someone else to, someone on your hunt with you, someone who might lack judgement?  I doubt anyone would.  Everyone has their own ethics and will impose them onto others at times. 

As with anything, this is just a discussion, but it also has taken an turn towards getting personal, snarky, and a bit "he said THIS, and I take OFFENSE".  Lighten up, it's a discussion.  Nobody is going to come to your hunting spot and physically restrain you from shooting at something they feel is unethical. 

[JDHasty]

Novice hunter, come on! My friends 12 year old son has shot bear at 680 yards. Bang Flop, done deal. People who haven't spent their lives in the distance shooting world have a hard time comprehending it.

The man posting stated that he wanted to build a pair of rifles for his wife and he to hunt with and specifically stated that his wife is a novice hunter.