Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[Biggerhammer]

well at least you have regrouped and are firing away from a different angle. The "Ethics" deal was a miserable failure.

Now it's all about the wind!

[jackelope]

So what if I kill a buck with a rifle and then the next week I kill an elk with my bow?  Am I a hunter then?

Only an elk hunter.

[JDHasty]

well at least you have regrouped and are firing away from a different angle. The "Ethics" deal was a miserable failure.

Now it's all about the wind!

Not at all.  I am saying that I do not see how anyone can say that they can be in the field, shooting at elk at 400 yards and not take into account that wind is not a variable that can be reliably accounted for. 

That being the case it shoud, in my mind, be considered that there should be some margin of safety to account for the fact that less than perfect first shot placement at these ranges is frequently enough less than what would be desired that using a firearm/cartridge that allows no room for error is questionable from an ethical standpoint. 

[Biggerhammer]

The wind is always a factor, that's not what your original post was all about?  The wind is a factor with any chambering. Shoot a bunch and you'll figure it out. It's simple math.

Next it will be bullet flight time and the animal could bolt into the next GMU before the bullet arrives. Several clowns have attempted that one in the past.

[Karl Blanchard]

It's 400 yards dude not 1400 yards.  Honestly, any shooter who knows his rig can bang that shot all day every day.  In the wind, in the rain, in the heat, or in the cold.  It's just not that difficult.

[Karl Blanchard]

So what if I kill a buck with a rifle and then the next week I kill an elk with my bow?  Am I a hunter then?

Only an elk hunter.

  gotcha!  So now I need to work on being a deer hunter.

[JimmyHoffa]

My opinion was I don't feel that a Ar-15 platform rifle has enough juice to reliably make sure kills on elk out to 400yards.  With perfect shot sure it is a dead elk everytime but stuff happens and shots sometimes miss their mark.  Now step up to a Ar-10 platform rifle and you can get a lot more powerful calibers that can help compensate for a shot that might be a little off its mark.  I do believe that the OP has something against AR platforms as a whole.  I own over nine AR's and would personally never use them for hunting simply because I like my bolt rifles better. 
But to really stir the pot I don't really agree with bow hunting either because I feel to many people fling arrows when they should have waited for a better shot.   But thats what is great about our country is that I am free to have my ownOpinions.

AR-15 with the .358 WSSM is kind of mid point between the .358 Win and the .35 Whelen.  That's well within elk capability at 400.

[bobcat]

It seems that some are reading a lot more into what JD is saying. In general I agree with his posts. How can you not? It also depends to some extent to what actual distance are we talking about here? 400 yards is a long ways, and most guys have no business shooting elk that far. But the title of this thread says "past 400 yards." So if we're talking 500, 600, and further, well that's something else entirely and would require a little more rifle than what we're taking about here.

[Biggerhammer]

Hmmmm, sure you read it all?

[bobcat]

Well, probably not. I didn't start reading this thread until it had been going for a while.

[coachcw]

So JD your saying the guys you hunt rock chuck with just arnt that good ? ..... to put into perspective the first five shots behind my 6.5 where at 405 yards with a 10-12mph cross wind the first shot was clean bore and was about two inches of the mark the next four where in the bull and could have been covered with a paper cup . that's a bolt gun I never shot ... blrm shoot it a 545 and believe he shot a one inch stick off a stump .....that's a quality bolt gun with little to no practice other than a couple dry fires . If I had a 6.5 grendal in a good ar platform that was say 1/2 moa with a lrab or a vld bullet id not hesitate to punch a elk through the lungs at 500 . ten iches behind the shoulder is a huge target . a 30/30 at 150 yards with a weaver 4x is far more difficult . by the way have you seen how far a elk can carry a arrow ?

[Karl Blanchard]

 

[JDHasty]

It seems that some are reading a lot more into what JD is saying. In general I agree with his posts. How can you not? It also depends to some extent to what actual distance are we talking about here? 400 yards is a long ways, and most guys have no business shooting elk that far. But the title of this thread says "past 400 yards." So if we're talking 500, 600, and further, well that's something else entirely and would require a little more rifle than what we're taking about here.

I have shot at enough rockchucks and seen enough rockchucks shot at by people who don't just claim to be good, they have won the hardware to back up that claim shooting high power, silhouette, bench rest and other disciplines wherein doping the wind comes into play to have an opinion on that subject that is based on decades of practical experience. 

The fact that one individual here claims: It's 400 yards dude not 1400 yards.  Honestly, any shooter who knows his rig can bang that shot all day every day.  In the wind, in the rain, in the heat, or in the cold.  It's just not that difficult.  Strongly suggests to me that this individual does not have much practical experience shooting in windy conditions.  The reason I say that is because the only people I have ever heard make such an outlandish claim have not had a lot of practical experience shooting under windy conditions when someone else was keeping score.  Kinda like the guy who claims to never miss on flushing pheasant in the field, but haas trouble breaking sixteen targets in a round of trap.  There was no one keeping score in the former. 

What also comes into play in the field is that big game hunting is not bench shooting and being able to shoot prone or even sitting using a bipod is not something that anyone can count on.  Shooting resting off a fence post, resting on a limb and especially off hand makes shooting a first shot into one or two MOA of where a shooter wants it to land quite unlikely.

[jay.sharkbait]

It seems that some are reading a lot more into what JD is saying. In general I agree with his posts. How can you not? It also depends to some extent to what actual distance are we talking about here? 400 yards is a long ways, and most guys have no business shooting elk that far. But the title of this thread says "past 400 yards." So if we're talking 500, 600, and further, well that's something else entirely and would require a little more rifle than what we're taking about here.

I have shot at enough rockchucks and seen enough rockchucks shot at by people who don't just claim to be good, they have won the hardware to back up that claim shooting high power, silhouette, bench rest and other disciplines wherein doping the wind comes into play to have an opinion on that subject that is based on decades of practical experience. 

The fact that one individual here claims: It's 400 yards dude not 1400 yards.  Honestly, any shooter who knows his rig can bang that shot all day every day.  In the wind, in the rain, in the heat, or in the cold.  It's just not that difficult.  Strongly suggests to me that this individual does not have much practical experience shooting in windy conditions.  The reason I say that is because the only people I have ever heard make such an outlandish claim have not had a lot of practical experience shooting under windy conditions when someone else was keeping score.  Kinda like the guy who claims to never miss on flushing pheasant in the field, but haas trouble breaking sixteen targets in a round of trap.  There was no one keeping score in the former. 

What also comes into play in the field is that big game hunting is not bench shooting and being able to shoot prone or even sitting using a bipod is not something that anyone can count on.  Shooting resting off a fence post, resting on a limb and especially off hand makes shooting a first shot into one or two MOA of where a shooter wants it to land quite unlikely.

I see you are still judging others based on your skill sets.

How was Christmas?

[grundy53]

It seems that some are reading a lot more into what JD is saying. In general I agree with his posts. How can you not? It also depends to some extent to what actual distance are we talking about here? 400 yards is a long ways, and most guys have no business shooting elk that far. But the title of this thread says "past 400 yards." So if we're talking 500, 600, and further, well that's something else entirely and would require a little more rifle than what we're taking about here.

I have shot at enough rockchucks and seen enough rockchucks shot at by people who don't just claim to be good, they have won the hardware to back up that claim shooting high power, silhouette, bench rest and other disciplines wherein doping the wind comes into play to have an opinion on that subject that is based on decades of practical experience. 

The fact that one individual here claims: It's 400 yards dude not 1400 yards.  Honestly, any shooter who knows his rig can bang that shot all day every day.  In the wind, in the rain, in the heat, or in the cold.  It's just not that difficult.  Strongly suggests to me that this individual does not have much practical experience shooting in windy conditions.  The reason I say that is because the only people I have ever heard make such an outlandish claim have not had a lot of practical experience shooting under windy conditions when someone else was keeping score.  Kinda like the guy who claims to never miss on flushing pheasant in the field, but haas trouble breaking sixteen targets in a round of trap.  There was no one keeping score in the former. 

What also comes into play in the field is that big game hunting is not bench shooting and being able to shoot prone or even sitting using a bipod is not something that anyone can count on.  Shooting resting off a fence post, resting on a limb and especially off hand makes shooting a first shot into one or two MOA of where a shooter wants it to land quite unlikely.

I'm glad you are here to let us all know what is ethical and right.

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