Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[Biggerhammer]

 
Ethics is ones own deal, I don't push mine on anyone. I can personally care less about others.

I and others I hunt with have taken big game animals at over 400 yards with AR15 based chamberings.



One shot stop, 596 yards with a 6.5 Grendel.

[jay.sharkbait]

Where do you get a 6.5 grendel has 308 ballistics?  Everything I see has it way below in energy and/or velocity.
Factory loads for a 6.5 put a 123gr bullet at 2600fps and 1800ft/lbs  while a factory 308 puts a 150gr at 2900fps and 2900ft/lbs.

That is not even close.  Keep drinking the Kool aid.  The 6.5 Grendel is a nice little round but it sure doesn't compare to a 308 or any other 308 based cartridge.  As to the OP no I don't personally feel you can get enough energy out of a ar-15 based cartridge to reliably kill big game out past 200yards.  But that is not to say it hasn't been done cause I am sure it has, but it leaves alot of room for lost game.

Those pretty well are the same thoughts I have on the subject.  When I read a thread where a guy is claiming a large mule deer at 496 yards and a spike elk at 411 yards I was wondering how many head of big game this guy has wounded and lost to the coyotes over the years. 

To be honest, it impressed me that Elmer Keith was probably not anyone I would want to associate with when I read his stories about banging away at trophy class big game animals with a six-gun at ranges that a guy with a thirty-thirty with open sights would have a huge problem accurately placing a shot at.

Nice.

So you choose to apply your version of ethics to someone else ( who you don't know)and imply that the person has lost game and isn't an ethical hunter? I have been killing mammals with AR based rifles for uhhh.. Yikes.. 30 years? and have never seen anything survive a well placed shot.

I refuse to share hunting stories and pictures on this board because of people like you.

[JDHasty]

ftp://

If shooter and weapon can shoot 1/2 moa or better at that distance .

I suppose that if I ever came across a shooter with a weapon that they could shoot 1/2 MOA, under big game hunting field conditions, not off a bench and not at 100 yard increments that I might be OK with it, but I have never seen anyone who could even come close to that shooting rockchucks off a super stable shooting bench, sandbagged in and using a front rest with windage and elevation.  I have seen it done frequently at the range, heck I manage to do it myself fairly often, but never even seen anyone even come close in the field. 

[jay.sharkbait]

The right caliber and bullet choice along with good bullet placement it could be done.

Of course it "could be done" if by that you mean could you kill an elk at north of 400 yards with it.  What I am asking is: is it ethical to attempt to do so?

Ethics is something I won't apply to others.

If you feel comfortable doing it and have the skills...Go for it!

I guess you and I are just wired a bit different in that regard.

That's for sure

[JDHasty]

Where do you get a 6.5 grendel has 308 ballistics?  Everything I see has it way below in energy and/or velocity.
Factory loads for a 6.5 put a 123gr bullet at 2600fps and 1800ft/lbs  while a factory 308 puts a 150gr at 2900fps and 2900ft/lbs.

That is not even close.  Keep drinking the Kool aid.  The 6.5 Grendel is a nice little round but it sure doesn't compare to a 308 or any other 308 based cartridge.  As to the OP no I don't personally feel you can get enough energy out of a ar-15 based cartridge to reliably kill big game out past 200yards.  But that is not to say it hasn't been done cause I am sure it has, but it leaves alot of room for lost game.

Those pretty well are the same thoughts I have on the subject.  When I read a thread where a guy is claiming a large mule deer at 496 yards and a spike elk at 411 yards I was wondering how many head of big game this guy has wounded and lost to the coyotes over the years. 

To be honest, it impressed me that Elmer Keith was probably not anyone I would want to associate with when I read his stories about banging away at trophy class big game animals with a six-gun at ranges that a guy with a thirty-thirty with open sights would have a huge problem accurately placing a shot at.

Nice.

So you choose to apply your version of ethics to someone else ( who you don't know)and imply that the person has lost game and isn't an ethical hunter? I have been killing mammals with AR based rifles for uhhh.. Yikes.. 30 years? and have never seen anything survive a well placed shot.

I refuse to share hunting stories and pictures on this board because of people like you.

In the context of what I said:  Yes I choose to disassociate myself from others because my version and there's diverges. 

If you want to set up a straw men, why not set up a whole field of them and then run around like a pyromaniac in a filed of straw men burning them down.  Nobody is stopping you, but it is not going to buttress your argument to set up the straw man that I imply that any person who has lost game isn't an ethical hunter, because I never implied that.  Period.  Full stop. 

I will say that it is unethical to shoot at game animals with a firearm/cartridge that lacks energy to make humainly killing them fairly certain as opposed to it being a matter of luck. In the case of Elmer Keith and stories I have read it impresses me that he probably maimed and injured at least as many, and likely far more, than he ever killed when banging away with a six gun at north of two-hundred yards.

[Biggerhammer]

The drama! 

[jay.sharkbait]

The drama! 

Oh.... Spare me.     

[Biggerhammer]

So easy, even Mark Larue has done it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/164444_.html&page=2

[JDHasty]

Elmer Keith has photos of mule deer he killed with a six gun at very long range.  I don't doubt that it is posible to kill a deer with a six gun at the ranges he claimed to have killed them at.  I don't even doubt that the photos and captions below them are accurate descriptions of what went down.

Conspicuous, in my mind, in it's absence is any discussion of how many mule deer Keith wounded for every one he bagged when banging away at them with a six gun at extreme range.  In bagging one of these deer that Keith is photographed with his six gun next to, IIRC he hit it with two or three non lethal hits before finally bringing that particular deer to bag. 

I doubt that anyone would make a claim that it is not possible to kill an elk or deer with an AR15 based rifle at extreme range, what I am asking is do others think that it is ethical to shoot at big game like elk at north of four hundred yards and mule deer at ranges approaching 600 yards?  Posting photos that "prove" that a person can kill deer and elk with an AR15 based rifle really do nothing to make the case that it is ethical to shoot at deer and elk at these ranges.  Given the fact that Elmer Keith wrote about banging away at dozens X dozens of head of big game with six guns at ranges well over two-hundred fifty yards and there are maybe a half dozen or a dozen pictures showing him with a deer he killed with a six gun at those ranges, that begs the question: just how many head of big game did Elmer Keith wound and maim that died a lingering and painful death and were never recovered. 

[Biggerhammer]

We were at 500 yards concerning deer when you started this, now I see your at 600 yards as of your last post.

Again "Ethics" is a very personal thing and I can careless about others ethics or their opinion of others ethics.

[jay.sharkbait]

Elmer Keith has photos of mule deer he killed with a six gun at very long range.  I don't doubt that it is posible to kill a deer with a six gun at the ranges he claimed to have killed them at.  I don't even doubt that the photos and captions below them are accurate descriptions of what went down.

Conspicuous, in my mind, in it's absence is any discussion of how many mule deer Keith wounded for every one he bagged when banging away at them with a six gun at extreme range.  In bagging one of these deer that Keith is photographed with his six gun next to, IIRC he hit it with two or three non lethal hits before finally bringing that particular deer to bag. 

I doubt that anyone would make a claim that it is not possible to kill an elk or deer with an AR15 based rifle at extreme range, what I am asking is do others think that it is ethical to shoot at big game like elk at north of four hundred yards and mule deer at ranges approaching 600 yards?  Posting photos that "prove" that a person can kill deer and elk with an AR15 based rifle really do nothing to make the case that it is ethical to shoot at deer and elk at these ranges.  Given the fact that Elmer Keith wrote about banging away at dozens X dozens of head of big game with six guns at ranges well over two-hundred fifty yards and there are maybe a half dozen or a dozen pictures showing hom with a deer he killed with a six gun at those ranges, that begs the question: just how many head of big game did Elmer Keith wound and maim that died a lingering and painful death.

I don't care what Elmer Keith did with a revolver and why does it have anything to do with hunting with an AR15 based rifle?

[JDHasty]

We were at 500 yards concerning deer when you started this, now I see your at 600 yards as of your last post.

No, it is not I who upped the range to 600 for deer.  If you care to look up this thread.... I do believe that it is you who posted a photo of a mule deer and the caption says 596 yards. 

To be sure, I thought it absolutely outrageous that someone would take 500 yard potshots at a mule deer with an AR15.  But what this photo/caption implies to me is that there are people out there who think nothing of shooting at big game animals that are essentially 3/8s of a mile away with AR15s. 

[Biggerhammer]

Typo! It's always been 496...

[jay.sharkbait]

We were at 500 yards concerning deer when you started this, now I see your at 600 yards as of your last post.

No, it is not I who upped the range to 600 for deer.  If you care to look up this thread.... I do believe that it is you who posted a photo of a mule deer and the caption says 596 yards. 

To be sure, I thought it absolutely outrageous that someone would take 500 yard potshots at a mule deer with an AR15.  But what this photo/caption implies to me is that there are people out there who think nothing of shooting at big game animals that are essentially 3/8s of a mile away with AR15s.

What's a "potshot"?

Heck, I want to know what "lights out" is?

Bug holes

Clover leafs

Etc

[Biggerhammer]

Potshot?  The rifles are dialed, have been shot plenty at those distances in field conditions . The guy pulling the trigger can shoot. Get over it!