Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[Karl Blanchard]

Actually the 6.5 is a better choice for long range if your inexperienced  since its such a stable bullet...if they miss due to drop then the animal just walks off.

Yep and almost no recoil. Excellent choice for new or young hunters.

That is something I do not agree with.  IMHO if you are shooting at big game at long range with a cartridge with trajectory like the 6.5G you have absolutely no business without a laser range finder and a scope with target knobs.  If you miss due to undershooting in that situation then it follows that it is you who botched the shot and that to me implies that the bullet could be right or left or high as well.  If right or left means a shoulder shot then all of my observations are valid.  What is more, if you dialed in a minute of angle of windage after taking a wind reading where you are shooting from and the wind is blowing the opposite direction most of the way to the animal that means your inexperienced hunter's perfect shot lands about nine inches laterally - either in the shoulder or in the liver.  In the case of a shoulder hit, the 6.5G with the light 6.6 bullets used in it lack the sectional density and mass to have sufficient momentum to break down a large deer or elk hit in the shoulder.

  I don't care what gun or how big the caliber is, as soon as you are having to hold "off hair"  it's time to start dialing.  Everyone you are arguing with here uses proper optics for the job. 

[JDHasty]

What's the velocity with that 6.5?

I get 2490 with factory 123 sst and an 18" barrel. Just over 940 lbs energy at 400 yards.

Thanks.

Knowing that, I can't see that being a 400 yard elk rifle. Would be marginal on deer at that range.

300 yards would be a good max range for that cartridge, in my opinion. Again that's my opinion only, don't want to argue.

Not saying it couldn't kill an elk at 500 yards. It probably could, just like an elk could be killed at 100 yards with a 22 long rifle.

In the hands of an expert, who is intimately familiar with the cartridge I suppose I see it as marginal at best and I would not personally use it.  Others disagree and are confident in their ability to place shots, so who am I to say.   Where I cannot go is to suggest it is a reasonable choice for long range shooting at deer and especially elk by those who are average or even above average shots and don't have a lot of experience with it.     

[JDHasty]

Actually the 6.5 is a better choice for long range if your inexperienced  since its such a stable bullet...if they miss due to drop then the animal just walks off.

Yep and almost no recoil. Excellent choice for new or young hunters.

That is something I do not agree with.  IMHO if you are shooting at big game at long range with a cartridge with trajectory like the 6.5G you have absolutely no business without a laser range finder and a scope with target knobs.  If you miss due to undershooting in that situation then it follows that it is you who botched the shot and that to me implies that the bullet could be right or left or high as well.  If right or left means a shoulder shot then all of my observations are valid.  What is more, if you dialed in a minute of angle of windage after taking a wind reading where you are shooting from and the wind is blowing the opposite direction most of the way to the animal that means your inexperienced hunter's perfect shot lands about nine inches laterally - either in the shoulder or in the liver.  In the case of a shoulder hit, the 6.5G with the light 6.6 bullets used in it lack the sectional density and mass to have sufficient momentum to break down a large deer or elk hit in the shoulder.

  I don't care what gun or how big the caliber is, as soon as you are having to hold "off hair"  it's time to start dialing.  Everyone you are arguing with here uses proper optics for the job.

What does that have to do with what was said regarding novice hunters shooting long range? 

[Karl Blanchard]

How about at mule deer at ranges closing on 500 yards? 

Notice I say AR15 based rifle and in this I explicitly want to not include AR10 based rifles that handle 308 Winchester based cartridges in this discussion. 

AR15 based rifles handle cartridges that are based on native cartridge brass that ranges in size UP to 7.62X39 or 30 Remington. 

What say you?

  Thought we were talking about the capabilites of the firearm not the shooter  

[Karl Blanchard]

Actually the 6.5 is a better choice for long range if your inexperienced  since its such a stable bullet...if they miss due to drop then the animal just walks off.

Yep and almost no recoil. Excellent choice for new or young hunters.

That is something I do not agree with.  IMHO if you are shooting at big game at long range with a cartridge with trajectory like the 6.5G you have absolutely no business without a laser range finder and a scope with target knobs.  If you miss due to undershooting in that situation then it follows that it is you who botched the shot and that to me implies that the bullet could be right or left or high as well.  If right or left means a shoulder shot then all of my observations are valid. What is more, if you dialed in a minute of angle of windage after taking a wind reading where you are shooting from and the wind is blowing the opposite direction most of the way to the animal that means your inexperienced hunter's perfect shot lands about nine inches laterally - either in the shoulder or in the liver.  In the case of a shoulder hit, the 6.5G with the light 6.6 bullets used in it lack the sectional density and mass to have sufficient momentum to break down a large deer or elk hit in the shoulder.

  I don't care what gun or how big the caliber is, as soon as you are having to hold "off hair"  it's time to start dialing.  Everyone you are arguing with here uses proper optics for the job.

What does that have to do with what was said regarding novice hunters shooting long range?

  um because you said it.  6.5, .223, or 338 win, if you are guessing hold, you're doing it wrong. 

[jay.sharkbait]

264/6.5G 18" barrel and I was going a little bit faster than don't get crabs.

Energy is important sure but I focus on speed and how the bullet performs on impact. Hitting large bone is out at the distance I quoted BTW.

I haate dialing and Use a HORUS Reticle.

[Biggerhammer]

264/6.5G 18" barrel and I was going a little bit faster than don't get crabs.

Energy is important sure but I focus on speed and how the bullet performs on impact. Hitting large bone is out at the distance I quoted BTW.

I haate dialing and Use a HORUS Reticle.

Well that's a amature set up if I've ever seen one! :tup

High speed, low drag stuff there.

[JDHasty]

Funny how guys that have no clue how to shoot distance constantly dote over numbers. Deads, dead.. Bang Flop! What's there to discuss. Go do your thing a we will do ours.

Funny how structural engineers, who couldn't begin to operate a crane, dote on numbers too.  Equally funny how oilers and crane operators kill a lot of innocent people and destroy millions of dollars in property every week around the world because they don't have any appreciation for the calculations that were used to set load ratings on cranes.  It's a real belly laugh and in 99% of those accidents it is "operator error" on the part of people who have extrapolated their limited field experience and applied that to situations that they lack appreciation of.

In fact the number of cases of design deficiencies in the lifting apparatus are so rare that they shrink to insignificance when compared to the cases of people who think they can disregard the numbers.

[jay.sharkbait]

264/6.5G 18" barrel and I was going a little bit faster than don't get crabs.

Energy is important sure but I focus on speed and how the bullet performs on impact. Hitting large bone is out at the distance I quoted BTW.

I haate dialing and Use a HORUS Reticle.

Well that's a amature set up if I've ever seen one! :tup

High speed, low drag stuff there.

Just a bunch of junk I swept up on the shop floor one day.

[jay.sharkbait]

Funny how guys that have no clue how to shoot distance constantly dote over numbers. Deads, dead.. Bang Flop! What's there to discuss. Go do your thing a we will do ours.

Funny how structural engineers, who couldn't begin to operate a crane, dote on numbers too.  Equally funny how oilers and crane operators kill a lot of innocent people and destroy millions of dollars in property every week around the world because they don't have any appreciation for the calculations that were used to set load ratings on cranes.  It's a real belly laugh and in 99% of those accidents it is "operator error" on the part of people who have extrapolated their limited field experience and applied that to situations that they lack appreciation of.

Funny how some people can make the easiest stuff in the world sound hard.

This stuff isn't that tough folks.

[JDHasty]

Funny how guys that have no clue how to shoot distance constantly dote over numbers. Deads, dead.. Bang Flop! What's there to discuss. Go do your thing a we will do ours.

Funny how structural engineers, who couldn't begin to operate a crane, dote on numbers too.  Equally funny how oilers and crane operators kill a lot of innocent people and destroy millions of dollars in property every week around the world because they don't have any appreciation for the calculations that were used to set load ratings on cranes.  It's a real belly laugh and in 99% of those accidents it is "operator error" on the part of people who have extrapolated their limited field experience and applied that to situations that they lack appreciation of.

Funny how some people can make the easiest stuff in the world sound hard.

This stuff isn't that tough folks.

Ain't that the truth. It isn't that hard to apreciate that a bullet that lacks momentum to break down an animal hit in the shoulder at ranges that make bullet placement tricky is generally considered "marginal."

[jay.sharkbait]

An animal doesn't need to be " broken down" to kill it.

I avoid  the shoulder as I don't want to waste the meat.

[jackelope]

oooh. A potential new thread diversion here. Shot placement...

[Biggerhammer]

oooh. A potential new thread diversion here. Shot placement...

BINGO!!!

There's been several prime opportunities for a "Out" but some just won't let stuff go.

My eight year old daughter even sings it.

"Let it go, let it go, let it go!"

[BULLBLASTER]

I still haven't seen any response to blrs. Confirmed kill with a 243 that had less energy than the example 6.5. Earlier in the thread hasty said a 243 was acceptable.
 
It's very hard to argue with the ignorant and closed minded people. An exercise in futility of you show real world examples and still can't get them to open their mind.
I'll take a guy like hammers real world experience over Hastys numbers any day of the week.