Washington Mule deer hunting by permit only...???

[UBA]

I would be for picking your species. Still get to hunt every year but might help with crowding during certain seasons. If your willing to travel right now you sure can hunt a lot of days for three different species of deer. How many guys hunt mule deer opening weekend then head off to hunt blacktail or whitetail later?

[Dr. Death]

Im all for picking a species or east/west side like elk...

[bobdog86]

Im all for picking a species or east/west side like elk...

I like the east side/west side option, honestly thats not fair apologies. I hunt SE washington primarily for Muley's, both on public and private land….after the first 4-5 days, most pressure (can't speak for every where) dwindles considerably…..we see plenty of deer, actually more deer than people. Been that way in my family for 60+ years. It did get better after the 3 pt restriction, we see more bucks and does. Fawns are down, we have a predator issue and I believe thats a bigger problem.

[cbond3318]

I think just like the term "trophy hunting" is not used properly, the term "quality" is also mis-used.  Quality is not purely based on trophy potential.  Quality is adequate numbers of deer for the holding capacity of the land.  Quality is healthy buck to doe ratios.  Quality is reasonable number of hunters in relation to the specific herd for that gmu.  All of this equals a quality hunt and in return, a product of this is also a more mature age class of buck.  With better populations you will see higher success rates which usually equates to a positive experience.  A positive experience usually results in an attempt to duplicate said experience.  That means repeat license sales.  Just sayin......

  

[jackelope]

I think just like the term "trophy hunting" is not used properly, the term "quality" is also mis-used.  Quality is not purely based on trophy potential.  Quality is adequate numbers of deer for the holding capacity of the land.  Quality is healthy buck to doe ratios.  Quality is reasonable number of hunters in relation to the specific herd for that gmu.  All of this equals a quality hunt and in return, a product of this is also a more mature age class of buck.  With better populations you will see higher success rates which usually equates to a positive experience.  A positive experience usually results in an attempt to duplicate said experience.  That means repeat license sales.  Just sayin......

  

Well said, Karl. Thanks for clarifying pretty much exactly what I've been referring to.

[MooseStock]

I think its a awesome idea but the tribes do not have to go along with our rules so in essence it just may be creating a better hunt for them. It would have been a super idea years ago but I can't see not getting to hunt if they are just going to come along and shoot more Bucks. It is just to bad Pandora's box is open........Les

[Special T]

Anyway, my point is what needs to be done to get those people back and happy about hunting here in Washington. So, what's it going to take??

You won't...the public has shifted away from things that take work....it has nothing to do with the hunting opportunity out there its just our attention spans have been programed for immediate pleasures and hunting is far from immediate...it's a long term reward in a short term society...

Being positive is about the only thing you can do, it's just as contagious as being negative..

That's all I'm trying to do...be positive and bring up some ideas for positive changes. Doesn't seem like many here are interested which, judging by those WDFW numbers, is no surprise. Most seem to want to complain about everything wdfw and do nothing to change it. Seems about par for the course.

My Guess is that what you and the WDFW are missing is that it is NOT MY JOB to figure out what we are paying them to do. Its clear to me and many others however that the WDFW has done a lot of things Negative that will affect thier ability for a long time. I was quite vocal with my reps and anyone who would listen(as were many here) when the WDFW asked for sportsmens help to prevent a merger. Im not really sure how it was we were thanked for going to bat for them. It sure hasnt been making sportsmen Priority #1 in thier book. I think there are a LOT of reasons affecting the success of the WDFW, leadership being the biggest  negative and we have not been able to affect real change.

From a business perspective the WDFW suffers because they dont see the cash value of hunters Proof of this has been when the Department shows how little Lic contribute with out linking those some Lic to P& R funds as if they were unrelated.

[bobcat]

I agree that trying to limit our harvest to improve mule deer numbers is pointless due to tribal hunting. Some of you may remember the Umtanum unit (342) was draw only for a few years. That was about 15 years ago, and it didn't last long because the tribal guys were simply killing all the extra deer that weren't getting killed by us. So I think it was only permit only for two or three years before the WDFW realized the lack of a general season wasn't helping, so they opened it back up.

I've often wondered if we should just have the same season as the Yakama tribe, in the areas that are open for them to hunt. (Year around, no limit) I bet they'd suddenly see the need to reduce the length of their season and limit their members to a reasonable number of animals they could harvest each year.

[Special T]

... Anyway, my point is what needs to be done to get those people back and happy about hunting here in Washington. So, what's it going to take??

The hunters who will remain when/if there is a draw will be those dedicated successful hunters.  The ones we lose will be those who care less about trophy potential and more about just being out and participating.  If you want to get more people involved and create a happy hunting environment increase opportunity rather than limit it.  Make participation easy rather than difficult.  Let new and unsuccessful hunters feel wanted as stewards and voters rather than feeling unwanted by the new breed of elitists and trophy hunters created by record books and TV shows.

Look at the increased participation in the archery shooting sports the past few years.  For so long we shamed archers because they did not fit the herculean image of tough guys and master hunters.  TV shows and modern movies appealed to the more traditional, have fun, enjoy archery lifestyle.  NASP programs were designed so all kids could compete.  The Mathews/NASP bows were designed so nearly any child, gender and strength level could shoot, participate and enjoy shooting the bow.  NASP is very deliberate in appealing to the weak, the strong, the gifted and the not so gifted.  They promote participation above trophies and gargantuan displayed of superiority.  It has worked!  Archery is one of the fastest growing women's sports in the country now overtaking fly fishing.  Archery shops that once had a half dozen range lanes are searching for new locations to double and even triple the amount of lanes.

Look at bowhunting numbers over the past 15 years.  We bowhunters like to think of ourselves as the cream of the crop, most elite sportsmen and the almighty gifts from a socialist god.  In truth, most hunters who chose to hunt with the bow do so because they have a longer season and can shoot does without a draw system.  Those that disagree have a hard time explaining how Oregon was forced to reinstitute archery doe seasons after changing the rules to buck only.  Deer tag sales dropped nearly 50% and rifle tags increased nearly 25%.  It was such an alarming change of user groups and drop in state revenue the state changed things back before the first season started.  Bowhunting's popularity in either/or hunting states is all about opportunity and almost nothing about trophy potential.  Trophy potential is our way of rationalizing our new elitist behavior - not about increasing enjoyment or participation.

It's about increasing the ease of participation and appreciating all groups rather than grand standing on divisive elitist principles.

The quotes in read really strike at the heart of the issue. More focus needs to be on making hunting easy, Fun, and less intimidating. I usually bow hunt for the season. Im a weekend, afternoon warrior and quit modern because i wanted more time to get out. Every time a new complicated rule gets passed, an extra fee etc hunting becomes more of a hassle instead of an experience.  Im not sure if it was poster on here or not, but i remember reading that a study was done to try and assess why people were leaving the sport or not getting into it. COMPLEX RULES was at the top.

As hunters we are our worst enemies.  We hunters cannot seem to come together. We are head strong, individualists, who dont listen to others well. It has been said on here several times that FISHING Groups have found ways to come together to make a clear loud unified voice on issues making it easy for the legislature and the WDFW to address issue. WE have not done this.  The best example of it working for the hunting community is all of the archery Orgs WSAA, WA bowhunters and Trad hunters of wa coming together and hashing issues of agreement out so that a large block of sportsmen can be used as a block to hold weight to recommendations. We REALLY need some kind of Super Pack meeting of many sportsmen and animal groups (RMEF, Mule deer, Blacktail foundation, Turkey, Sheep etc) to come together on some basic points and push them on the WDFW. They will only respond under pressure and numbers.  I know i have mentioned this to our WSAA rep Ren and to Mule Deer on here. Whatever conservation or sporting group you belong to you need to repeat that we need a Washington Sportsmans coalition to beat back some of the stupidity we face.

[Special T]

I agree that trying to limit our harvest to improve mule deer numbers is pointless due to tribal hunting. Some of you may remember the Umtanum unit (342) was draw only for a few years. That was about 15 years ago, and it didn't last long because the tribal guys were simply killing all the extra deer that weren't getting killed by us. So I think it was only permit only for two or three years before the WDFW realized the lack of a general season wasn't helping, so they opened it back up.

I've often wondered if we should just have the same season as the Yakama tribe, in the areas that are open for them to hunt. (Year around, no limit) I bet they'd suddenly see the need to reduce the length of their season and limit their members to a reasonable number of animals they could harvest each year.

It is hard to make any kind of real improvements when only one side plays by a set of rules. I bet it would bring the tribes to the table but the WDFW does not have the fortitude to do it mainly because their Handler (the Gov) gets lots of tribal # to leave them alone.

[jackelope]

... Anyway, my point is what needs to be done to get those people back and happy about hunting here in Washington. So, what's it going to take??

The hunters who will remain when/if there is a draw will be those dedicated successful hunters.  The ones we lose will be those who care less about trophy potential and more about just being out and participating.  If you want to get more people involved and create a happy hunting environment increase opportunity rather than limit it.  Make participation easy rather than difficult.  Let new and unsuccessful hunters feel wanted as stewards and voters rather than feeling unwanted by the new breed of elitists and trophy hunters created by record books and TV shows.

Look at the increased participation in the archery shooting sports the past few years.  For so long we shamed archers because they did not fit the herculean image of tough guys and master hunters.  TV shows and modern movies appealed to the more traditional, have fun, enjoy archery lifestyle.  NASP programs were designed so all kids could compete.  The Mathews/NASP bows were designed so nearly any child, gender and strength level could shoot, participate and enjoy shooting the bow.  NASP is very deliberate in appealing to the weak, the strong, the gifted and the not so gifted.  They promote participation above trophies and gargantuan displayed of superiority.  It has worked!  Archery is one of the fastest growing women's sports in the country now overtaking fly fishing.  Archery shops that once had a half dozen range lanes are searching for new locations to double and even triple the amount of lanes.

Look at bowhunting numbers over the past 15 years.  We bowhunters like to think of ourselves as the cream of the crop, most elite sportsmen and the almighty gifts from a socialist god.  In truth, most hunters who chose to hunt with the bow do so because they have a longer season and can shoot does without a draw system.  Those that disagree have a hard time explaining how Oregon was forced to reinstitute archery doe seasons after changing the rules to buck only.  Deer tag sales dropped nearly 50% and rifle tags increased nearly 25%.  It was such an alarming change of user groups and drop in state revenue the state changed things back before the first season started.  Bowhunting's popularity in either/or hunting states is all about opportunity and almost nothing about trophy potential.  Trophy potential is our way of rationalizing our new elitist behavior - not about increasing enjoyment or participation.

It's about increasing the ease of participation and appreciating all groups rather than grand standing on divisive elitist principles.

The quotes in read really strike at the heart of the issue. More focus needs to be on making hunting easy, Fun, and less intimidating. I usually bow hunt for the season. Im a weekend, afternoon warrior and quit modern because i wanted more time to get out. Every time a new complicated rule gets passed, an extra fee etc hunting becomes more of a hassle instead of an experience.  Im not sure if it was poster on here or not, but i remember reading that a study was done to try and assess why people were leaving the sport or not getting into it. COMPLEX RULES was at the top.

As hunters we are our worst enemies.  We hunters cannot seem to come together. We are head strong, individualists, who dont listen to others well. It has been said on here several times that FISHING Groups have found ways to come together to make a clear loud unified voice on issues making it easy for the legislature and the WDFW to address issue. WE have not done this.  The best example of it working for the hunting community is all of the archery Orgs WSAA, WA bowhunters and Trad hunters of wa coming together and hashing issues of agreement out so that a large block of sportsmen can be used as a block to hold weight to recommendations. We REALLY need some kind of Super Pack meeting of many sportsmen and animal groups (RMEF, Mule deer, Blacktail foundation, Turkey, Sheep etc) to come together on some basic points and push them on the WDFW. They will only respond under pressure and numbers.  I know i have mentioned this to our WSAA rep Ren and to Mule Deer on here. Whatever conservation or sporting group you belong to you need to repeat that we need a Washington Sportsmans coalition to beat back some of the stupidity we face.

The last post you quoted said its not our job...., then this quoted post mentions several wildlife org's who are here to push for things to happen. So which one is it? Are you part of the solution? Are you involved with any of the wildlife org's you mentioned? If not, maybe you should be. I'm assuming you specifically are, Special T.  The latter part was more of a generic "you". 

[Special T]

I broke it down into 2 posts for a reason. One is the reality of the situation and its negative, the second one was because you asked the question what can we do to make a positive difference. IMO each post answered a different question.

Post 1
The WDFW NEEDS ME! I am its customer. They need ME to buy a lic so that they get my $ ant the P&R funds. Im not really sure why because The only thing i have heard that they have done well was the reintroduction of turkeys to some areas a while back. The department NEEDS to make the case WHY I NEED THEM! It cannot be for enforcing wildlife laws. Operation Cody is proof enough of that, in addition to the joke of a TV program that they currently are on.  Is it for all the habitat improvements they have been doing? Kinda think that has been the work of nonprofits and individual hard work. Has it been the increased Opportunities? Department of AG shot a bunch of elk in the skagit valley that could have been some ones opportunity... Is it because they are our voice to the general public of the $ we provide, the volunteer work done and our role in managing healthy populations? Cant say that i think this is the case either... While they couldnt come out for or against the baiting and dogg running initiatives they could have spoken about how it factually works so that the generally ignorant public could have at least had an informed decision.
There is a Looong term trend that shows that the Department is not the alley they say they are to the hunting community. Unless THEY address this THEY are doomed... New leadership at the top spot hasnt done a whole lot...
I dont need the department to take my kids out the woods to teach them how to track game, find edible plants, make a fire, sleep in the raining woods, Shoot a bow, musket or rifle... I dont even need them to teach my kids to hunt or fish because I can do that in other states, Besides the fishing is much better in Canada anyway. I can still pass on all the things necessary for skills and heritage without the WDFW and its about time that they realize that there are MANY other opportunities for my time and $.
Im informed enough to know that the WDFW faces some really tough challenges, BUT WHO DOESNT! We do pay them after all... A fact they like to gloss over i might add. Perhaps they should look at US as valued customers instead of irritants that they must endure. This is the Crux of my first post

Post 2
While it is not our job to ensure the success of the WDFW we could make it a little clearer for them to get it right. Doesnt meant they will But If your going to put forth some effort this is the ONLY thing that has a Icream cones chance in summer of helping.
If we are gona have a fighting chance we need a Big coalition Coastal Conservation Association is an organization to model after. I am not a member but have been told by several people "In The Know" that these guys have rallied all manner of fishing and conservation groups together to  push for specific objectives.  The Washington Archery coalition had better success with the WDFW when members in each ORG sat down and hashed out a plan before involving the department. Gov Bureaucracies LIKE big blocks of people with well known names because it gives them cover form when another group gets thier panties in a twist.


So which is it? Its both posts. You cant force the department guys to do anything especially with the likes of Jay Inslee as Governor and the knuckleheads running the department right now. That doesnt mean that you cant make it uncomfortable for these freeloaders who are taking OUR $ and not taking care of us. The best Defense is a good offense. We have been like a herd of cats trying to navigate a single direction.  Im certain that we could find 3-4 points of mutual agreement on a broad range or Orgs to build some success and move onward and upward from there. Who knows We may even be blessed with a reasonable governor in the near future.

[Special T]

Well. I sure hope some people read and listen to what you're saying, Brian.
That's good stuff. More folks need to do whatever they can to get kids involved. Doesn't have to be their own kids either.
My wife shoots a bow and fly fishes lol. My now 8 year old daughter has been shooting her bow for 2 years now. I've had hints thrown at me to start an archery project  in our 4h club. Maybe I should get on that. I'm hesitant because I'm not the most experienced archer in the world. Not sure how I'd do as a teacher.

Did you get my PM on the 4h info?

[jackelope]

Well. I sure hope some people read and listen to what you're saying, Brian.
That's good stuff. More folks need to do whatever they can to get kids involved. Doesn't have to be their own kids either.
My wife shoots a bow and fly fishes lol. My now 8 year old daughter has been shooting her bow for 2 years now. I've had hints thrown at me to start an archery project  in our 4h club. Maybe I should get on that. I'm hesitant because I'm not the most experienced archer in the world. Not sure how I'd do as a teacher.

Did you get my PM on the 4h info?

I did, yes, thank you. I was actually at 4h rabbit club when I got it. Thanks again!!

[baldopepper]

I believe there are a lot more factors that go into the decline of hunting than just the ease of permitting or finding a place to hunt.  Just a simple look at how the world around us has changed in the last few years explains most of it.  When I was young most people hunted because they needed/wanted to fill the freezer, kids didn't have so many organized activities to participate in on the weekends, both parents working with little extra time was not common, kids didn't have a computer and color tv in their bedroom to keep them occupied and groups like PETA didn't exist. Wildlife agencies across the country answered almost exclusively to the hunting/fishing community and were staffed mostly by people with a hunting fishing background.  I don't believe that the difficulty in permitting or finding a place to hunt even enters into the top 5 reasons younger people are not getting into hunting, but making both easier would certainly be a step in the right direction.  We, as hunters, seem to forget at times that wildlife agencies across the country no longer manage just for the hunting community. The pressures on them from groups that didn't even exist 20 years ago are intense and have to be listened to as intently as the pressures from hunting groups, they are also voters. Everyone seems to think they are an expert in game management-hunters who want more opportunity, anti hunters who want no opportunity and the majority who don't have an opinion and could care less either way. Hunting was something their grandpa did and if they want a steak they'll go to Safeway to buy it and of course spend 30 minutes picking out just the right wine to go with it. Trying to appease all of these people and the separate groups within the hunting community (do we manage for more opportunity or do we manage for only more trophy opportunity) is a task I don't want any part of. As an avid hunter I'll keep mulling my way thru the proclamations, finding a permit to hunt with and scouting out a place to hunt.  I can't answer for anyone else and don't have enough time left to spend a lot of it worrying or complaining about how the world is continuing to change.