Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?

[boneaddict]

Sure habitat  is a major issue........people now occupy most all historical mule deer wintering grounds.  This state may be the worst.

Interesting note on this, the large tracts are what is "saving" the deer right now.  If it wasn't for the refuge effect, of some of this private, things would be worse if you can imagine that


Basically spot on Curly.   But you'll hear even on here..".make the seasons longer and later."   

[Bill W]

I started the High Hunt back in 1977 and until around 1982 the rule was "any legal buck".  Back then a lot of what was shot was spikes and 2 points with few bigger deer. In 1983 (or so) the rule changed to "three point or better).  I saw very few bucks taken for a couple years and then the "larger" ones started showing up  I say "larger" as they ended up being 2 1/2 year old 3 and 4 points, roughly 18-20 inches wide.   Last year I hunted the High Hunt I had 7 bucks in front of me with 3 being legal.  I was content to sit and watch, and wait for that bigger one to show up.  Once I started spotting the legal bucks, after the regulation change, in thinking back I could have shot pretty much a deer a year.  I didn't as I gave up shooting the usual 2 1/2 year old buck.

A friend of mine hunted this same area from before it was a wilderness area and I wonder what he saw back then.  This was in the early 60's.   I think I heard Glacier Peak Wilderness was established somewhere around 1963.

What I suspect is the small bucks gather in one spot, the bigger ones (legal 3's and 4's 18-20" wide) in another and the bruisers in yet a different spot.   I think that if a person is seeing small bucks the issue is they should move to a different location, whether it be distance, cover, elevation or something else that makes it different.

[Rainier10]

Okay now that the shock of 7 illegal bucks were in the back of the wardens truck I guess I am ready to comment.

Lots of great ideas here.

I will say since the 3pt minimum rule was introduced I see more bucks than before.  I do see lots of two pts but I am not sure there are a ton of really big ones in the areas that I hunt.  There are a lot of standard sized two points but that is because you can't shoot them.  I also see a bunch of 3x's and 4x's.  Maybe I am just hunting in good areas.  My kids have the multiseason tags so we hunted archery and muzzy season, one tagged out in each season.  Their cousin had a rifle tag and had opportunities at multiple legal bucks and ended up tagging out on the second weekend.

I am concerned about the amount of deer taken by predators and after reading the first post I am really concerned about how many deer are being taken by mistake.

[timberfaller]

Well after reading most of the 6  pages I'll have to add my   

Having spent most of the general season in the Methow, hunting all my ole stomping(logging) grounds, here is goes!!

Last years fires concentrated a whole lot of Okanogan deer into the Methow drainage's,  after season estimates put the slaughter at 550+ bucks  add  to that a un-reported winter kill.   

Talked to numerous hunters and their FIRST question was, "where are all the deer at?"   On private property!

Yes a few were found and taken, but as one guy told us, (spent the season with my brother in law), "the west side game dept. people told them it would be as good a season as last years" 

Before I moved out of the Methow(5 years ago) I had a very interesting conversation with a now retired game warden.  His take on the "3 point or better" was,  "it needed to be abandoned" he also informed me that the agency no longer was interested in what the "wardens" opinions were  only the "biologist" had any creditably in regards to what was going on "outdoors"!! bunch of desk jockey's!!

My take on this years season in the Methow, I have never seen so FEW deer there!!  Up high(in the snow) and down low on Private lands! The numbers are NOT there,   BEST thing that could be done is to CLOSE those units(224,231 and 239)for at least 2-3 years.   I can hear the screams now!!

What makes me even  is the WDFG stance reported in all the local papers was, "the 3 point system is working!" in regards to last years slaughter.   Common sense says otherwise!! 

[JBar]

Are you calling that deer huge?

He may not be mature but he's not your average 2pt either.

My bad...I forgot there for a minute that we were talking about WA mule deer. Yep that there is a huge mule deer (in WA) the kinda deer that you bring back to camp and people be all like "Daaaaaaaaang son. Where'd you find that one??"

[buckfvr]

Sure habitat  is a major issue........people now occupy most all historical mule deer wintering grounds.  This state may be the worst.

Interesting note on this, the large tracts are what is "saving" the deer right now.  If it wasn't for the refuge effect, of some of this private, things would be worse if you can imagine that


Basically spot on Curly.   But you'll hear even on here..".make the seasons longer and later."   

I agree, however I was pointing more at the folks who have settled in the valley bottoms where the deer once sought winter refuge....And yes Curly is right.  Im just not sure I trust wdfw enough to hand them the keys to an emergency closure of any sort. 

[LDennis24]

I commented earlier, maybe on a different thread, but what I said was that there were way too many mature 2 points running around compared to branch antlered bucks, that was meant for my area. If I had the time and money to travel further from home then I wouldn't have any concern about shooting a mature 3+ point mule deer buck. I know where they are, I just don't have time to be off work and leave my livestock for my wife to feed with our 6 month old child. That being said, certain area's that were affected by wildfires like the Methow and everywhere else in your neck of the woods that was affected, should be re-evaluated and a serious limit put on the number of deer harvested every year for atleast the next 5-6 yrs. Maybe someone should start up a predator hunting club with incentives like a money pot and knock back the coyote populations. I read a study from I believe Wyoming one time that said coyotes were responsible for 70% or more of fawn mortality in the area's studied and bobcat's were a close second in mortality for area's where there were more cats known to be around. Add to that limited browse due to fires and you have a massive herd of weak animals that make excellent prey in your area's. It's time to do some serious predator annihilation and limit the deer harvest until the herd's are back up and the terrain rebounds from the fire damage. 

[ghosthunter]

I've gotta ask just outta curiousity from you guys that hunt there- how many wolves have you seen, did you hunt this year , were you successful and if not how far from the road were you?

My group hunts there. 7 this year. Average age 60. No more than 3 miles from road. Saw lots of smaller bucks, killed no bucks. One doe tag filled , one not.
No wolves or cats, heard yotes though.
Camped there 15 days in tents.

[NOCK NOCK]

Seeing how mature mule deer bucks are the best for breeding does, maybe no rut permit hunts should occur in some of these areas where numbers are way down.  That might help keep some of the big boys around to spread their genes and have the most success in breeding and fawn survival.  Maybe no doe seasons should occur until the deer numbers go up?   

It all depends on what hunters are willing to live with and what WDFW is willing to lose on license revenue.  I suspect the majority of hunters aren't willing to make changes and WDFW doesn't want to lose license revenue.   

 

I enjoy being able to hunt deer every year... the killing a deer every year part is just a bonus, so at 1st thought I was not liking the odd/even every other year thing.  BUT I think I could get on board with every other year mulie hunting if the same was done for elk hunting.
This way a guy gets to hunt every single year and it would benefit both the mulies and the elk.

The question is, If mulie hunting is reduced/limited, how will this effect the blackie & whitey hunting? Seems these species would get hit a lot harder. 

[Sakko300wsm]

I've gotta ask just outta curiousity from you guys that hunt there- how many wolves have you seen, did you hunt this year , were you successful and if not how far from the road were you?

My group hunts there. 7 this year. Average age 60. No more than 3 miles from road. Saw lots of smaller bucks, killed no bucks. One doe tag filled , one not.

No wolves or cats, heard yotes though.
Camped there 15 days in tents.


We had camp set up at 6000'. Was 7 of us - 5 only hunted 2 days and went home. Me and my wife hunted deer 4 days(had the whole 11 days off) , got 2 nice bucks down, killed grouse another day and came home on Thursday before snow got bad where we were. No wolves or cats. Saw quite a few deer - probably shoulda held out a few more days , but oh well. 3-5 miles in everyday, saw quite a few deer and no people except making tire tracks

[eliandsky]

What a great thread. Wish there was a majority consensus.  Only thing that seems to be a common theme is things change and change is hard.

I've only hunted for the last 5 years. I was taught hard work and perseverance pays off. I've killed an average 135-145 4point every year and not once has it been easy it's 10mile days and 3000'. I see only whole deer in camps and of the 650 deer at Thompson's last year 95% were whole. That may never happen again.

Pod casts internet google earth hunt-WA have made deer hunting education accessible to everyone. Hunters are educated like never before.  Hunters are becoming athletes. Hunters are changing. Hunting is going to get harder and maybe that's ok.

Hope this guy grew an eye guard this year and someone found him. 

 


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[Jonathan_S]

Now that IS a big two point 

[Sakko300wsm]

Whole deer at camp?? What the hell is that haha lmao!!

[nimrod67]

My question is, is all the killing of illegal deer normal or could it be because of the slaughter fest last year that everyone heard about and the fact that wdfw said this season would be the same if not better than last year.  I personally saw a few 2 points taken this year but other than the first couple years after the 3 point restriction was implemented I haven't seen very many, maybe 1 or 2 every couple years.  I did also see a lot (20+) of carcasses of does and fawns in the creek beds and when I asked the game warden what his opinion was on that he said winter kill that's just where they went to die. I also saw a lot more hunters this year than normal, so many so that I had one guy shoot towards a deer that I hit in the lungs and he said he killed it and it was his deer, long story short i gave up arguing and got a much nicer one the next day.  I should also add that i don't disagree with the decline in numbers but i think it has to do more with the miss management by wdfw and the predator populations rising.

[Sakko300wsm]

People like that should not just be waked away from so the can continue to do it year after year like they try to do in some of the elk areas. They need to be delt with accordingly