I love wolves. Seriously.

[jackelope]

Wolves are beautiful and fascinating and majestic creatures.  Should there be as many as there are in Washington?  More?  Less?  I don't have the slightest clue what the answer to that question is, but I don't hate the creatures themselves, and I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to. 

Am I missing something?

Yeah, you're missing that they are an introduced species, that they have some seriously negative impacts on rural communities, and most importantly that they are managed by folks like you that have lived in areas unaffected by them. You've seem them on TV or maybe briefly through binoculars and think they are a great and wondrous animal, but that's it. You've seen discussions here and elsewhere yet still ask what's the big deal. I'm not being mean or derogatory just pointing out the situation as bluntly as possible. You don't know what you don't know until there's an opportunity for someone to figuratively smack you on the back of the head and put your nose in the mud. It's not the animals fault, the fault lies with those who put management policies into actions that think bringing wolves back on to the scene some how makes up for our ancestors getting rid of them in the first place, while never having to suffer any ill impacts of the introduction of Grey wolves. 

He's from almost the same place as you.

Grew up in eastern Oregon, graduated from Cove high school 2005. Hunted north of Wallowa most of the time above the breaks of the Grand Ronde (from our camp I could hike down to where the Wallowa meets the Grande Ronde). Still kick around in the Wallowa and Eagle Cap mountains whenever possible. I hunt mainly SE Idaho (Pioneer zone) where my mothers side of the family is from (Carey Idaho) and have a family friend that's an outfitter there (Little Wood River Outfitters) that has been in business since the early-mid 80's. I'm not new to interacting with deer, elk, bears, antelope, moose, and packing mules.

From a guy who normally puts out some pretty good posts, saying I'm from nearly the same place as an Alabama whitetail hunter is one of the stupidest things I've seen you post jackelope, let alone any other moderator on here. 

I maintain, however, that it will forever drive me bonkers that it seems that someone's knowledge is purely, or at least mostly based on where they're from. I think I have a fairly good working knowledge of the outdoors, animals, wildlife, etc. I can hang with the everyday Joe in outdoor related conversations. I know enough about wolves, mule deer, elk, whitetail, fishing, to carry on a solid conversation with  pretty much anyone. I'm from New York. New frikkin York. I see folks flipping westsiders crap all the time for not knowing what they're talking about. I've taken a bunch of crap on here for being a westsider, and I'm not even a westsider. I grew up in the Catskills out in the country in upstate NY. I caught trout on my own property. I killed deer there.  I still own land there. They have no clue where I'm from, how I grew up and what I know. So maybe it's not best to judge someone based on where they're from....which was the intent of my inaccurate comment.

Fair enough but I judged the OP on the fact that he was admittedly new to the interactions with western species and the somewhat romanticized view he has of wolves.

I'll make note not to pick on you for being from the wetside or the state Hillary calls home. Instead I'll defer to your wisdom as someone who rode in a Studebaker to make it to the west coast, back when Studebaker first opened their doors.

Yeah I don't have good genetics geographically. I moved out here long after the Studebaker was a thing. 1997 to be exact. Just passed my 20 year westside anniversary in fact.

[yakimanoob]

Gents, I honestly have no idea why I'm getting so much flack for the questions I've asked.  They were asked with honest curiosity in mind, nothing more.

I have not once, here or anywhere, advocated for more wolves, or argued that Washington should have re-introduced them, or that WDFW is doing a good job of management, or made any other statements implying a "pro-wolf" stance other than that they are amazing creatures.  Pigs are amazing creatures.  I greatly appreciate that they exist and find them fascinating.  But that doesn't mean I wouldn't happily shoot one on sight, and I pray I never get the chance at a feral hog in Washington.  Their presence here would be destructive, and I hope Washington never has to grapple with them like Alabama has to.  But that doesn't make me hate them.  If they were cuter and looked more like the creatures that I keep as pets, I'd probably like them and maybe even love them.  But it wouldn't change my opinion of whether or not we should release a bunch of them into the wilderness. 

In fact, I specifically stated that I know nothing about the topic of wolves in an attempt to clarify that I wasn't trying to state or comment on anything.  To do so would obviously be talking out of my arse, and I have therefore avoided it.   

What confuses me is that people like skyvalhunter, theleo, buglebrush, and gringo seem to have assumed that I have some kind of pro-wolf agenda and are mad about it.  A wolf in sheep's clothing? Banned from the forum? Needing to be smacked upside the head and have my nose shoved in the mud?

If you guys can't take honest questions without jumping to the conclusion that I'm an anti-hunting leftie who's here to troll you, then I maintain that you are part of the problem.  If you can't participate in reasonable discourse, what hope do you have of convincing anyone, much less those in government, that they should listen to your policy ideas?  Alienating those who ask questions is a sure-fire way of eliminating any chance you may have had at gaining the political momentum you need to change things. 

This kind of caustic flame-throwing does more to damage the cause of hunters than asking questions about why people hate wolves, in my opinion.

[yakimanoob]

On the flip side, thanks to bearpaw, wapititalk, idahohuntr, ghosthunter, gringo, kentrek, pianoman, and the many others who took the time to answer my question thoughtfully.  As usual, I've learned a lot from the people on the forum overall, and I really appreciate it. 

[jackelope]

Don't let them bother you. These guys also think tree stand hunting whitetails is easy and there's no work that goes into it. Shake it off. It's unfortunately a common occurrence on forums like this.

[KFhunter]

Gents, I honestly have no idea why I'm getting so much flack for the questions I've asked.  They were asked with honest curiosity in mind, nothing more.

I have not once, here or anywhere, advocated for more wolves, or argued that Washington should have re-introduced them, or that WDFW is doing a good job of management, or made any other statements implying a "pro-wolf" stance other than that they are amazing creatures.  Pigs are amazing creatures.  I greatly appreciate that they exist and find them fascinating.  But that doesn't mean I wouldn't happily shoot one on sight, and I pray I never get the chance at a feral hog in Washington.  Their presence here would be destructive, and I hope Washington never has to grapple with them like Alabama has to.  But that doesn't make me hate them.  If they were cuter and looked more like the creatures that I keep as pets, I'd probably like them and maybe even love them.  But it wouldn't change my opinion of whether or not we should release a bunch of them into the wilderness. 

In fact, I specifically stated that I know nothing about the topic of wolves in an attempt to clarify that I wasn't trying to state or comment on anything.  To do so would obviously be talking out of my arse, and I have therefore avoided it.   

What confuses me is that people like skyvalhunter, theleo, buglebrush, and gringo seem to have assumed that I have some kind of pro-wolf agenda and are mad about it.  A wolf in sheep's clothing? Banned from the forum? Needing to be smacked upside the head and have my nose shoved in the mud?

If you guys can't take honest questions without jumping to the conclusion that I'm an anti-hunting leftie who's here to troll you, then I maintain that you are part of the problem.  If you can't participate in reasonable discourse, what hope do you have of convincing anyone, much less those in government, that they should listen to your policy ideas?  Alienating those who ask questions is a sure-fire way of eliminating any chance you may have had at gaining the political momentum you need to change things. 

This kind of caustic flame-throwing does more to damage the cause of hunters than asking questions about why people hate wolves, in my opinion.

We've had undercover wolf advocates on the forum before, and had to remove them from the forum when it was painfully clear that their whole purpose was to push the wolf agenda. 
I do appreciate your honest effort at learning more about wolves, like any internet forum though you need to weed through the chaff and find the nuggets of wisdom.  There's a ton of wisdom and knowledge on this forum. 

and yes, they are amazing animals and I don't wish to see them exterminated.  I want wolves and all the other predators kept in check by intensive management, not managed by food availability because then there won't be much left for us!

[buglebrush]

Gents, I honestly have no idea why I'm getting so much flack for the questions I've asked.  They were asked with honest curiosity in mind, nothing more.

I have not once, here or anywhere, advocated for more wolves, or argued that Washington should have re-introduced them, or that WDFW is doing a good job of management, or made any other statements implying a "pro-wolf" stance other than that they are amazing creatures.  Pigs are amazing creatures.  I greatly appreciate that they exist and find them fascinating.  But that doesn't mean I wouldn't happily shoot one on sight, and I pray I never get the chance at a feral hog in Washington.  Their presence here would be destructive, and I hope Washington never has to grapple with them like Alabama has to.  But that doesn't make me hate them.  If they were cuter and looked more like the creatures that I keep as pets, I'd probably like them and maybe even love them.  But it wouldn't change my opinion of whether or not we should release a bunch of them into the wilderness. 

In fact, I specifically stated that I know nothing about the topic of wolves in an attempt to clarify that I wasn't trying to state or comment on anything.  To do so would obviously be talking out of my arse, and I have therefore avoided it.   

What confuses me is that people like skyvalhunter, theleo, buglebrush, and gringo seem to have assumed that I have some kind of pro-wolf agenda and are mad about it.  A wolf in sheep's clothing? Banned from the forum? Needing to be smacked upside the head and have my nose shoved in the mud?

If you guys can't take honest questions without jumping to the conclusion that I'm an anti-hunting leftie who's here to troll you, then I maintain that you are part of the problem.  If you can't participate in reasonable discourse, what hope do you have of convincing anyone, much less those in government, that they should listen to your policy ideas?  Alienating those who ask questions is a sure-fire way of eliminating any chance you may have had at gaining the political momentum you need to change things. 

This kind of caustic flame-throwing does more to damage the cause of hunters than asking questions about why people hate wolves, in my opinion.

We've had undercover wolf advocates on the forum before, and had to remove them from the forum when it was painfully clear that their whole purpose was to push the wolf agenda. 
I do appreciate your honest effort at learning more about wolves, like any internet forum though you need to weed through the chaff and find the nuggets of wisdom.  There's a ton of wisdom and knowledge on this forum. 

and yes, they are amazing animals and I don't wish to see them exterminated.  I want wolves and all the other predators kept in check by intensive management, not managed by food availability because then there won't be much left for us!

[theleo]

Gents, I honestly have no idea why I'm getting so much flack for the questions I've asked.  They were asked with honest curiosity in mind, nothing more.

I have not once, here or anywhere, advocated for more wolves, or argued that Washington should have re-introduced them, or that WDFW is doing a good job of management, or made any other statements implying a "pro-wolf" stance other than that they are amazing creatures.  Pigs are amazing creatures.  I greatly appreciate that they exist and find them fascinating.  But that doesn't mean I wouldn't happily shoot one on sight, and I pray I never get the chance at a feral hog in Washington.  Their presence here would be destructive, and I hope Washington never has to grapple with them like Alabama has to.  But that doesn't make me hate them.  If they were cuter and looked more like the creatures that I keep as pets, I'd probably like them and maybe even love them.  But it wouldn't change my opinion of whether or not we should release a bunch of them into the wilderness. 

In fact, I specifically stated that I know nothing about the topic of wolves in an attempt to clarify that I wasn't trying to state or comment on anything.  To do so would obviously be talking out of my arse, and I have therefore avoided it.   

What confuses me is that people like skyvalhunter, theleo, buglebrush, and gringo seem to have assumed that I have some kind of pro-wolf agenda and are mad about it.  A wolf in sheep's clothing? Banned from the forum? Needing to be smacked upside the head and have my nose shoved in the mud?

If you guys can't take honest questions without jumping to the conclusion that I'm an anti-hunting leftie who's here to troll you, then I maintain that you are part of the problem.  If you can't participate in reasonable discourse, what hope do you have of convincing anyone, much less those in government, that they should listen to your policy ideas?  Alienating those who ask questions is a sure-fire way of eliminating any chance you may have had at gaining the political momentum you need to change things. 

This kind of caustic flame-throwing does more to damage the cause of hunters than asking questions about why people hate wolves, in my opinion.

The way that you posed the question "what's the big deal" about the issue is the reason for the flak. Similar to me knowing nothing about heroine and talking to a community saying people should be able to do what they want and makes them feel good, so what's the big deal?

Contrary to jackelope's genralization (he's doing that a lot today) I have complete respect for whitetail hunters. My referencing you as an Alabama whitetail hunter was referencing that the background I'm from is extremely different than yours. Not better or worse, but extremely different.

If you think I gave you flak, I wouldn't start the conversation the same way in a central Idaho bar. My bluntness will seem like bright and cheery banter compared to the response you'd get there.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Gringo31]

@ yakimanoob


I'll take a stab at this. 


I question your sincerity.  You're last post makes it sound like you are just wanting information or at least you are looking to have an HONEST discussion.  Here is why I question your motives  (I'll add, like others have said, we've dealt with people in the past just looking to stir the pot, they throw a match and then sit back and watch with little replies, except to ask why the fuss).  It is possible you are focused on drawing the line between whether or not wolves are "hated" because of what they do or because they are a wolf?  It's odd....

You contradict yourself over and over and I'll point out some highlights to make my point.


You've said....

I do have an honest question.  Why all the hatred of wolves?

I get thinking that wolves in Washington are mismanaged.  I get thinking they're overpopulated.

Should there be as many as there are in Washington?  More?  Less?  I don't have the slightest clue what the answer to that question is,

But then you say...

I wasn't exactly looking for a debate

I'm not the one who's causing the problem here.  And neither are the wolves.

You started off with saying you love wolves, "Seriously"... then post

OK, that's an admittedly click-baity subject line

and follow up later with

I honestly have no idea why I'm getting so much flack for the questions I've asked

You knew what you were doing (like I said) when you did it.  And...just to jab you, my favorite contradiction is ...

What confuses me is that people like skyvalhunter, theleo, buglebrush, and gringo seem to have assumed that I have some kind of pro-wolf agenda and are mad about it.

On the flip side, thanks to bearpaw, wapititalk, idahohuntr, ghosthunter, gringo, kentrek, pianoman, and the many others who took the time to answer my question thoughtfully.

 

[yakimanoob]

@ yakimanoob


I'll take a stab at this. 


I question your sincerity.  You're last post makes it sound like you are just wanting information or at least you are looking to have an HONEST discussion.  Here is why I question your motives  (I'll add, like others have said, we've dealt with people in the past just looking to stir the pot, they throw a match and then sit back and watch with little replies, except to ask why the fuss).  It is possible you are focused on drawing the line between whether or not wolves are "hated" because of what they do or because they are a wolf?  It's odd....

You contradict yourself over and over and I'll point out some highlights to make my point.

I think I'm starting to understand your reactions.  Gringo, if I was getting flack for the subject line, I wouldn't be confused.  I'm not above phrasing things in a way meant to grab people's attention.  The first and second "contradictions" on your list don't seem like contradictions to me, and there were quite a number of folks who seems to have understood my intent and answered honestly.  Which leads me to you:

I didn't contradict myself by listing you in both places, and the irony wasn't accidental.  In your first post, you answered my question thoughtfully and I appreciated your response, but then later you joined the chorus of voices calling me disingenuous and wanting me to stop. 

I apologize if anything I said was confusing or misleading.  My intent was to hear people's thoughts in exactly the way you first answered my question, as did several others. 

[Gringo31]

I suppose that is fair enough....but I do question your motives.


It's not like it's a hard question to answer.  IF indeed you were curious why people feel the way they do, a little research would answer that question.  You think pigs are amazing and fascinating.  OK....... but you can understand why they shouldn't be here. 

IF I screamed from the mountain tops that pigs need to be in all 50 states because they are amazing and fascinating animals, AND they were brought here and people were upset about and hated them............would I need to ask why they were upset or why they hate pigs?

In some ways, it is no different.  Wolves are an issue in Alaska/Canada/Russia etc.  They do what wolves do.  That doesn't mean our money should be spent on having them here.  When real dollars are spent to cost what many of us see as opportunity or at least as a drain on our beloved natural resources.....people are passionate about it.

I suppose after all of this I still don't understand what you are really after. 

[Gringo31]

IF it is as simple of why the hatred....


Go talk to the folks down south and ask them why they "hate" pigs.

[blackveltbowhunter]

    Yakimanoob-

If your intent is sincere then I can appreciate the topic. Personally, I find it hard to beleive that you had no idea of the negative emotion this subject stirs within the hunter user group. So either your incredibly naive with your title in which case you have recieved education. Or your simply trying to stir the pot. If you had wanted to start a wolf discussion for the purpose of educating yourself you could have simply said, No experience with wolves. Please help. Or Why are Wolves Bad for hunters? And your responses likely would have been far less inflammatory.

  For me I have tried to curb the use of the words Hatred or Love in my wolf discussions, as they are both emotional words. And I beleive emotion has little place in the science of game management. I don't "hate" wolves anymore than I "love" them. They simply are. However I do rank game animal on a scale of worth Both personal and collective. To me the wolf is right there with the housefly maybe slightly above. I have seen them, They look like mangy dogs, not the picture of power and grace photos often depict. I have heard them, they did not stir my soul the way a bull elk bugle does. A pack of wolves is a formadible force, but remove the wolf from the pack and it suddenly pales in comparison to many other predators out there. If they were extinct, life would be easier, and I would miss nothing. If they are here and I can deal with them in any manner I see fit, they are a hassle and irritation but I learn to deal with it. But when they are impacting my life and someone says you can not use fly strips, fly baits, fly swatters, fly treatments, fly traps, or arial fly gunning at all. Or in some cases you can use fly swatters, but no baits or traps. Well then I feel like those individuals are overstepping their bounds and that will stir an emotional response as irritation gives way to anger and anger turns to hatred. Throw in losses as described in this thread and its easy to see why emotions run high. 

[wolfbait]

It isn't about loves wolves, hate wolves, it's about who controls the numbers-Bob Fanning

The biggest problem with the illegal wolf introduction is the lack of wolf control. If states were managing their game herds then there would be strict wolf, predator control. And if ranchers etc. were allowed to shoot wolves that were killing their livestock, there would be less backlash.

Ranchers who lose livestock do to wolves and have no recourse don't have the same feeling for wolves as the city dweller. The same goes for hunters etc. who see the senseless slaughter that wolves leave behind them.

The cow in the picture below had a new calf on her when the wolves killed her, the USFWS and WDFW ran to the papers and claimed there was no way they could tell what killed the cow, they failed to even mention the new calf.

[buckcanyonlodge]

The moose looks like it is being eaten alive...Gotta love those wolves

[Skyvalhunter]

Yakimanoob what have you got to say?