Should 209 primers be legal?

[elkonastick]

yes.

[bobcat]

I'll vote for the 209's to be legal, for nothing other than the fact that they'll be easier to find in the stores. It won't really change the effectiveness of a muzzleloader significantly, so I don't have an issue with it.

If they didn't "really change the effectiveness of a muzzleloader significantly" they would not be almost exclusively used in States that allow their usage.  Fact is they do make a big difference in ignition reliability, particularly among individuals who do not put time and effort into learning how to protect caps from moisture.  High quality 209s have a waterproof lacquer covering the flash hole in the cup that seals out moisture.   

Maybe I should say they won't extend the range or the effectiveness of a muzzleloader. Sure, they'll likely be more reliable. Just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, I guess. Like I said, musket caps and #11 caps are often in short supply and can be hard to find at times. 209 primers are much more readily available. That's the main reason I'd vote to allow them. My real preference would be no inlines, no jacketed bullets, no sabots, etc. But since all these modern things are already being allowed, I don't see how also allowing 209 primers would change much.

[JimmyHoffa]

bobcat, There are two types of 209 primers--muzzleloading and shotshell.  And shotshell even has a magnum variety.  All have different levels of power.

[Sabotloader]

bobcat, There are two types of 209 primers--muzzleloading and shotshell.  And shotshell even has a magnum variety.  All have different levels of power.

you are correct but none of them have a much different effect on the velocity of the bullet leaving the barrel.  That is determined by the powder load and weight of the projectile.

This target is one of many that I have shot across a chrono testing different primers...



You can see the results from the hottest primer a Federal 209A to the weakest a Remington 209-4 which were made for the 410 shotgun.

I have the same comparison shooting caps versus primers - no remarkable difference...

[Fl0und3rz]

Thanks for the solid data, Sabotloader.

[JDHasty]

The limiting factor for a muzzy is a single shot and open sites.  Keeping your powder dry is a pain and a 209 might be more reliable (I don't know, never used them), but I've never had ignition problems with No. 11 or musket caps.  Keep your powder dry and the gun goes boom every time.   

I said this like I was a bit too sure! Saturday and had a bull at 30 yards. I pulled the trigger and the cap didn't fire! Apparently elk don't like that sound. The bull bolted never to be seen again!

Come on 209 primers!

Friday I had a very nice BT buck in front of me w/~ ten minutes of legal shooting time left.  This was a few minutes after I quit my tree stand because I could no longer see my sights.  It was under a dark overcast, drizzling and "foggy," and I have shot a number of bucks under similar circumstances w/my slug guns.  I was sneaking out of the area of my stand and came up on four deer, one of which when I checked him out with my binocular was quite nice.  W/either my scoped slug gun or scoped crossbow it would have been an easy job to have dropped him. 

That's part of the game and I was hunting w/my compound bow during Muzzleloader Season, if I had my muzzleloader instead I still would have quit when I did.  It doesn't change my opinion that scope sights should not be made legal for either Muzzleloader or Archery Seasons and neither would having a cap misfire due to getting damp change my opinion that muzzleloader Season in Washington should keep the same "Western legal" standard we have now.   

[WSU]

The limiting factor for a muzzy is a single shot and open sites.  Keeping your powder dry is a pain and a 209 might be more reliable (I don't know, never used them), but I've never had ignition problems with No. 11 or musket caps.  Keep your powder dry and the gun goes boom every time.   

I said this like I was a bit too sure! Saturday and had a bull at 30 yards. I pulled the trigger and the cap didn't fire! Apparently elk don't like that sound. The bull bolted never to be seen again!

Come on 209 primers!

Friday I had a very nice BT buck in front of me w/~ ten minutes of legal shooting time left.  This was a few minutes after I quit my tree stand because I could no longer see my sights.  It was under a dark overcast, drizzling and "foggy," and I have shot a number of bucks under similar circumstances w/my slug guns.  I was sneaking out of the area of my stand and came up on four deer, one of which when I checked him out with my binocular was quite nice.  W/either my scoped slug gun or scoped crossbow it would have been an easy job to have dropped him. 

That's part of the game and I was hunting w/my compound bow during Muzzleloader Season, if I had my muzzleloader instead I still would have quit when I did.  It doesn't change my opinion that scope sights should be made legal for either Muzzleloader or Archery Seasons and neither would having a cap misfire due to getting damp change my opinion that muzzleloader Season in Washington should keep the same "Western legal" standard we have now.   

I was making fun of myself for saying so unequivocally that your gun will go off if you keep your powder dry.  Karma proved me wrong just days later!

[bear hunter]

I say yes. Bow hunters get glowing nocks, and mechanical broadheads.

[jagermiester]

I say yes. Bow hunters get glowing nocks, and mechanical broadheads.

Right... It doesn't make you shoot better or make the weapon more lethal it just makes it a little more reliable.

[luckyman]

I'm ok with 209 primers. Its still not a modern firearm.

[roentgenranger]

Agreed.  209's are safer.  Following the primitive argument, we should be shooting sidelocks with a pan full of 4f two inches from your eye.  Yes we get a better season, although it's the shortest in my unit.  At the end of the day, it's still a front stuffer and you only get one shot...

Yes to 209's!

[Pegasus]

Right... It doesn't make you shoot better or make the weapon more lethal it just makes it a little more reliable.
[/quote]

If it makes your weapon more reliable, it makes it more lethal. A higher kill rate will ensue. Stop trying to make your weapon a modern weapon and enjoy the privilege of the best season for elk in this state.

[bobcat]

Archery has the best season.

[Pegasus]

Archery has the best season.

Ha. Archery used to have the best season until it was stolen and given to the ML crowd. ML has real rut time. Archery has more days based upon lower kill rates.

[blackveltbowhunter]

I would disagree for the majority of the west side anyway. Although the Nooksack permit is a straight up gift from the heavens above for anyone with a muzzy

But having spent a significant amount of time during both seasons, I think overall archery has the best dates. This was certainly debatable when the season started earlier in September. But the archery season timing as is IMO is very appropriate. Both seasons fluctuate from year to year so some year the dates may have slight advantages one way or the other. Other factors not considered,  If I had to choose my season going into and including the equinox ( archery)/ or 2 plus weeks after the equinox ( the case with muzzy this year) I will always choose the first.