Cougar Research from Alberta

[WAcoyotehunter]

https://www.nontypical.org/news/2018/1/15/the-deadly-truth-most-dont-know-about-mountain-lions

Some interesting research from Alberta about cougar diets and prey selection/impact. 

I would love to see a 180lb tom take a feral horse. 

[bearpaw]

a good read, I liked the comment from the guy who said the study confirms what we have known about lions for decades

[Rainier10]

Very interesting.  Thanks for posting.

[mfswallace]

4000-6000 cougars in Washington equals 166,400-249,600 dead ungulates a year, mostly deer...

[MooseZ25]

Explains what is happening to the ungulate populations here in NE Washington.  But like stated before we have known this for decades....

[nwwanderer]

Thanks, good info.  Any sources on the 4000-6000 in Washington?  I certainly agree but the state seems stuck on 2000.  What is the effect of cat kill in Washington where wolves thrive.  Yellowstone studies show wolf taking cat kill regularly so cats kill more frequently.  Need to move some of those big males to Nevada, great 'organic' feral horse control.

[bigmacc]

Explains what is happening to the ungulate populations here in NE Washington.  But like stated before we have known this for decades....

A big contributor to the Methow herd decline also, I said this before in another thread but here it is again, I have seen more cougars in the Methow in the last 5 years than I have seen total in the previous 50, and its more and more every year. They are doing a number on that herd. Came across over 20 cached kills this year also, it was during a 10 day period this past season in two different areas in the valley.

[KFhunter]

a lot more accurate than the propaganda Weilgus put to WDFW

[kellama2001]

Informative and interesting! Thanks for sharing 

[DOUBLELUNG]

https://www.nontypical.org/news/2018/1/15/the-deadly-truth-most-dont-know-about-mountain-lions

Some interesting research from Alberta about cougar diets and prey selection/impact. 

I would love to see a 180lb tom take a feral horse. 

I had a Wyoming rancher show me where a very determined large cougar killed a 2,200lb Charolais bull.  They had left him behind on summer pasture because he had a bad limp, and they found the kill when they returned to truck him.  Looked like a methhead had run a rototiller over 10 acres.  We believed it was likely a large tom that was infamous in that area for coming back on his track to meet and kill dogs, the houndsmen eventually quit trying to hunt him.  A coworker found the skull of a large tom (14 7/8") in the same area that had been killed by badder tom, canine punctures in the skull from a bite across the top of the head.   

[William Lai]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

[Humptulips]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

It has been 21 years since we lost the means to control cougar numbers. I have seen nothing but a downward trajectory for deer and elk numbers. That makes me doubt the 8-11 year cycle you mention. I'm sure there are less cougars now then say 15 years ago but if anyone thinks the deer or elk will come back to any significant numbers I think they are mistaken.
I would bet cougar numbers do fluctuate up and down a bit but not enough to notice much change in ungulate numbers.
Predator pit, we are in here.

[bearpaw]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

You seem to infer certain prejudices that you assume regarding hunters. Cougar are one of my favorite animals to hunt or just to know they are out there. But we need to manage their numbers so that they don't negatively impact other wildlife numbers and livestock owners. With proper management all wildlife can coexist together without heavily impacting other wildlife.

[buglebrush]

Explains what is happening to the ungulate populations here in NE Washington.  But like stated before we have known this for decades....

A big contributor to the Methow herd decline also, I said this before in another thread but here it is again, I have seen more cougars in the Methow in the last 5 years than I have seen total in the previous 50, and its more and more every year. They are doing a number on that herd. Came across over 20 cached kills this year also, it was during a 10 day period this past season in two different areas in the valley.

Exactly.  Yet, the only option many consider is reduced hunting.  WDFW needs to grow some balls, and bring back hound hunting and get rid of their insanely low quotas! 

[Special T]

I love to see hound hunting come back. Unfortunately that is a battle we are unlikely to win. The Department sure won't support it.

 We need to push back but incrementally with rule changes we could make happen. Cage trapping? Longer Seasons? Bigger quotas?

With out a doubt we all need to do more on our part to thin the population, and I don't know much about cats... other than there seems to be a lot of them.

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[SpurInSpokane]

Just saw this thread but the link doesn't lead to the article anymore. Anyone have a working link?

[bigmacc]

Explains what is happening to the ungulate populations here in NE Washington.  But like stated before we have known this for decades....

A big contributor to the Methow herd decline also, I said this before in another thread but here it is again, I have seen more cougars in the Methow in the last 5 years than I have seen total in the previous 50, and its more and more every year. They are doing a number on that herd. Came across over 20 cached kills this year also, it was during a 10 day period this past season in two different areas in the valley.

Exactly.  Yet, the only option many consider is reduced hunting.  WDFW needs to grow some balls, and bring back hound hunting and get rid of their insanely low quotas!

In 1982 ish I seen something that most people have not seen in person, I was in the Mehow the 1st week of December counting deer. I was watching a herd of about 40(yep back then that was common) all bunched up, all looking in the same direction with their ears pushed forward. It was about 10 below zero with about a foot to 15'' of hard, frozen snow on the ground. There was about 6 bucks in the bunch with 2 of them being a couple dandys. I was about 100 yards away, standing in the open and they could care less about me, a couple does and a small buck briefly looked at me once for about 5 seconds and then turned back to watching what they had been focused on. I looked up where their attention was fixed with my binos but at first scan could not see anything. I kept looking and in the rocks about 20 feet above them I seen what looked like a face, I kept studying it and after a couple minutes of really scanning the object I seen a quick movement, now I figured it out and put the pieces of the object together, what I saw move was a tail and what I was looking at in the rocks was parts of a cat. After about 5 - 6 minutes of the standoff the herd slowly did an about face and SLOWLY started taking very slow steps, going back down the draw like they were trying to put the slip on something. That cat jumped out of those rocks onto the back of one of the smaller bucks and all hell broak loose, the herd scattered and the fight was on between the buck and lion, after about a 10 minute skirmish it was over and the buck was dead. At that time(early 80,s) I had been hunting the Methow for about 16 years, that was the 2nd cougar I had seen. Up until approx, 2010 we had seen about 5 or 6 cougars total over there, and that includes myself and other members of our group, thats spending a lot of time in the valley, hunting, hiking, fishing, scouting and living from time to time for months at a time. Since 2010 we have seen probably 26 between 5 of us, needless to say we have all started buying cougar tags the last couple years. I know there is a lot of talk about "other" predators in the valley and they are all having a negative impact on that mule deer herd but just from my observations, I can tell you from what I,ve seen and talking to old-timers I know over there, cats are knocking the crap out of that herd and have been since the "DOGS WERE CALLED OFF".It truly is a shame that our WDFW can't figure this out and actually manage this herd the way they were managed before they became WDFW. I know they know bout the cats because we sure see a lot of them with nice expensive collars on.

I will also add this to the story that in the last 5 or 6 years in most of the areas we hunt in the Methow its not a rarity, in fact it is common to find cougar kills scattered around, as I mentioned we found around 20 in one of our haunts, needless to say we saw 0 deer or sign(spent 2 days in there and hung it up) Sadly it was an area that our family has consistently pulled some big deer out of going back to the early 1900,s, it was very sad to see it null and void of deer this year except for the half buried carcasses. That all happened just in the last year, last year we saw some deer in there and no cached kills.

[Skyvalhunter]

Yea bigmacc those good old days are long past unfortunately

[JakeLand]

IF they're not smart enough to legalize dogs then they should legalize trapping them and even better yet legalize both!!

[Humptulips]

I couldn't find the study  but I found this http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/wildlife-management/documents/WildlifeMgmtPlan-Cougars-Nov2012B.pdf
from Alberta about management of cougars. Pretty interesting.

[TommyH]

I’ve seen more cougars in the last 8 years than ALL of my years combined in the woods. Called some in, stumbled upon 4 @20 yards (long story) watched a cougar/moose back and forth stand-off... elk are talking less-(cougars and wolves).

 I work and play in the woods, and the impacts of predators going unchecked is obvious to all that are “really” looking.

[bearpaw]

I couldn't find the study  but I found this http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/wildlife-management/documents/WildlifeMgmtPlan-Cougars-Nov2012B.pdf
from Alberta about management of cougars. Pretty interesting.

Management Goals, Objectives and Strategies for the Future
Cougars are appreciated for their intrinsic value and as a trophy game animal, yet they can cause conflicts with people through predation on pets and livestock, and can create public safety concerns. Cougar management in Alberta will reflect a need to balance cougar conservation with strong public sentiment that opposes the presence of cougars in rural residential and agricultural landscapes. Management objectives and strategies will include:

• Ensuring that cougar populations are protected from significant decline and that viable populations are maintained.

• Maximizing the benefits to Albertans through optimum allocation of the cougar resource amongst recreational, commercial, and other users.

• Maximizing the recreational benefits and enjoyment to Albertans from the cougar resource through the provision of a variety of recreational opportunities, including viewing and hunting.

• Providing a commercial benefit to Albertans from the cougar resource through tourism and non-resident hunting.

• Minimizing property damage and risks to human safety caused by cougars by ensuring that cougar predation on livestock and pets is reduced as much as possible, continuing the Wildlife Predator Compensation Program, and removing or relocating offending individuals.

• Promoting and encouraging scientific and educational activity to enhance knowledge of cougars.

I like their: Management Goals, Objectives and Strategies for the Future

[buglebrush]

I’ve seen more cougars in the last 8 years than ALL of my years combined in the woods. Called some in, stumbled upon 4 @20 yards (long story) watched a cougar/moose back and forth stand-off... elk are talking less-(cougars and wolves).

 I work and play in the woods, and the impacts of predators going unchecked is obvious to all that are “really” looking.

Absolutely.  Obvious to everyone except WDFW's brainwashed minions.

[bigmacc]

Sorry to the original poster but I should have put my posts that are in this thread,  in the "cougar Chills" thread

[William Lai]

You seem to infer certain prejudices that you assume regarding hunters. Cougar are one of my favorite animals to hunt or just to know they are out there. But we need to manage their numbers so that they don't negatively impact other wildlife numbers and livestock owners. With proper management all wildlife can coexist together without heavily impacting other wildlife.

Bearpaw I think you may be reading too much into my post.  Predator-prey cycles are natural phenomenon and I'm simply hypothesizing there may be a rebound at some point if things are left to nature. And I don't know what the length of that cycle is; 8-11 yrs is just for snowshoe hares, and it certainly seems plenty of hunters agree that the cougar-ungulate cycle hasn't yet peaked.

Of course, as the apex predator humans hunting cougars or wolves or whatever is very much natural as well, just not the way humans conventionally think of "nature".

[ribka]

The cougar ungulate cycle?

Always learning something new on here

[Skyvalhunter]

cougar-ungulet cycle now that's funny

[William Lai]

For example, people have studied Wolf-Moose population over time.

If you are curious, here's a good intro: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/ecology/community-ecosystem-ecology/v/predator-prey-cycle

[Humptulips]

For example, people have studied Wolf-Moose population over time.

If you are curious, here's a good intro: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/ecology/community-ecosystem-ecology/v/predator-prey-cycle

I did not see anything to do with cougar or wolves or moose or anything else except lynx and hares.
Everything on there is supposition when it comes to large carnivores. It would be nice if there was some sort of predator-prey cycle with cougar/wolves and ungulates that we could look at and see a bounce back of ungulates in x amount of years. I've never seen anything like that though.
To top it all off my understanding is the hare die off is not caused by an excess of lynx so even that cycle the guy talks about is questionable.
Only thing I ever remember reading on this was about Isle Royal I think it was and that was a very small closed system.
I'd have to see something more concrete to buy into it.

[ribka]

For example, people have studied Wolf-Moose population over time.

If you are curious, here's a good intro: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/ecology/community-ecosystem-ecology/v/predator-prey-cycle

Confused

I grew up in nw WI where we had a snowshoe hares and grouse cycles but zero lynx and zero cougars and  very very few wolves in the 70's and 80's

So wolves and cougars are the same and both hunt in packs and have the same reproductive rates?

Moose and mule deer inhabit the same winter and summer ranges, have the same reproductive rates as moose, eat the same browse and live in herds like mule deer?

Is this A Seattle base wildlife biology thing? :dunno:Maybe those who live in urban areas like Seattle just know more about wildlife biology and people who live among the wildlife every day are just dumb rubes? :dunn

Please educate us dumb sportsmen on here

[Skyvalhunter]

For example, people have studied Wolf-Moose population over time.

If you are curious, here's a good intro: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/ecology/community-ecosystem-ecology/v/predator-prey-cycle

You forgot one major issue with your beliefs. The population was down prior to wolves being in these areas. When you introduce the highest predator into the equation that results in a significant decrease in the game animals where they cannot recover from.

[time2hunt]

Anyone able to pull this link up or find the article again ?


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[RB]

Anyone able to pull this link up or find the article again ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Look at the link Humptulips posted earlier in this thread

[bearpaw]

another link to same info originally posted

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html

[rainshadow1]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

You seem to infer certain prejudices that you assume regarding hunters. Cougar are one of my favorite animals to hunt or just to know they are out there. But we need to manage their numbers so that they don't negatively impact other wildlife numbers and livestock owners. With proper management all wildlife can coexist together without heavily impacting other wildlife.

I realize that Mr Lai referred to this thought in later posts, but I need to comment... This is the mindset that has led WDFW to remove the human element from wildlife management. Like we're not here, and like we're not supposed to play a role. Completely upside down thinking. Humans have a right, and more importantly a responsibility to actively regulate the swings of predator/prey cycles. And it can be done... easily... but we (hunters) have to be written into the management of species. It's simple, but something that doesn't penetrate the ears of politically biased upper managers.

[idaho guy]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

You seem to infer certain prejudices that you assume regarding hunters. Cougar are one of my favorite animals to hunt or just to know they are out there. But we need to manage their numbers so that they don't negatively impact other wildlife numbers and livestock owners. With proper management all wildlife can coexist together without heavily impacting other wildlife.

I realize that Mr Lai referred to this thought in later posts, but I need to comment... This is the mindset that has led WDFW to remove the human element from wildlife management. Like we're not here, and like we're not supposed to play a role. Completely upside down thinking. Humans have a right, and more importantly a responsibility to actively regulate the swings of predator/prey cycles. And it can be done... easily... but we (hunters) have to be written into the management of species. It's simple, but something that doesn't penetrate the ears of politically biased upper managers.

 

[bearpaw]

I couldn't read the article as it led to a nonexistent page.

But, predator-to-prey ratio goes in cycles. Once the deer population decline there won't enough food for all the cougars to survive, and the cougars decline and the deer population rebound.  Same thing with Snowshoe Hares, it goes in a 8-11 year cycle.  It's just that humans have a bias against cougars and bias for deers, for obvious reasons.

You seem to infer certain prejudices that you assume regarding hunters. Cougar are one of my favorite animals to hunt or just to know they are out there. But we need to manage their numbers so that they don't negatively impact other wildlife numbers and livestock owners. With proper management all wildlife can coexist together without heavily impacting other wildlife.

I realize that Mr Lai referred to this thought in later posts, but I need to comment... This is the mindset that has led WDFW to remove the human element from wildlife management. Like we're not here, and like we're not supposed to play a role. Completely upside down thinking. Humans have a right, and more importantly a responsibility to actively regulate the swings of predator/prey cycles. And it can be done... easily... but we (hunters) have to be written into the management of species. It's simple, but something that doesn't penetrate the ears of politically biased upper managers.

 

  x3

[mfswallace]

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/01/07/cougar-hunt-in-alberta-sparks-debate-among-scientists-hunters-and-activists/


Hunters have been killing cougars in Alberta for decades.

They often follow prints in the snow or use dogs to track the big cats before they are shot with guns or bows.

Last month, outdoor television host Steve Ecklund’s cougar hunt led to online threats and criticisms — including a penis comment from Laureen Harper, wife of former prime minister Stephen Harper — after he bragged about it on social media.

Similar outrage followed the killing of No. 148, a well-known Banff grizzly bear, by a hunter in British Columbia last summer.

Both kills were legal.

Scientists say a cultural divide still exists — even within their own community — about hunting large carnivores.

“It’s seeing a much greater value on an individual animal rather than a population, but the system is set up for us to manage populations, not individuals,” said Adam Ford, an assistant professor of biology at University of British Columbia Okanagan.

“You see this come up when the individual-focus conservation people see a dead cougar and call people out for having a small penis.

“The way hunting has been designed for a long time is to not have an impact on the population.”

Alberta has regulated its cougar population since 1969. An annual quota allows up to 155 animals to be hunted each year.

The province estimates there are 2,000 to 3,500 cougars.

Both the government’s top carnivore expert and University of Alberta biologist Mark Boyce have said it’s a sustainable population that must be managed because cougars can prey on cattle or become a public safety risk.

Similar debates have taken place around grizzly bears. The hunt in B.C. was banned last month after surveys showed it wasn’t supported by most residents.

Although people are concerned about “beautiful cuddly carnivores” being shot, Ford said he worries scientists have been weighing in on the ethical debate over hunting.

“My morals are different than yours, but facts should be facts,” he said, noting he’s working on a paper looking at the growing divide between scientists on issues such as hunting.

Hunters have defended the hunt as a tradition.

“As outdoor enthusiasts, we look for opportunities to get into the outdoors,” said Wayne Lowry, a hunter and past president of the Alberta Fish and Game Association. “The cougar season offers a very late-season hunting opportunity.”

Lowry, who killed a cougar near Crowsnest Pass about 15 years ago, said it’s unlike any hunt he’s experienced.

“It took me two years,” he said. “For me, it was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of event.

He still has the mounted cat in his home.

“It was a great experience … You see the dogs get excited and you get excited as well.”

Lowry admitted there’s a lot of controversy about hunting.

“The debate is the same regardless of who it is, where it happens and what the species is. You have people who don’t like it and people who do.”

One scientist said the outrage is not generally with hunting, but an ethical debate over killing large carnivores that can suffer. Chris Darimont, associate professor of geography at the University of Victoria, said hunting for sport makes people uncomfortable.

“They cannot accept the idea that people kill carnivores not to feed their families, but to feed their egos,” said Darimont, who is opposed to killing animals other than for food or protection.

Ecklund said in a social media post that he made a stir-fry from the cougar, although eating the meat isn’t required by law.

Darimont, who hunts one elk or deer a year for food, said it’s a “thin veil of deception” for hunters to say they’re eating the animals, because predator meat isn’t very tasty.

“Wildlife managers for decades have acknowledged that these (animals) are not killed for their meat, but for their trophy items.”

The cougar hunt in Alberta should be re-evaluated, Darimont suggested. Science shows there are risks in overharvesting, because it’s tough to count carnivores and get a clear picture of the population, he said.

“There’s lots of uncertainty. Managers can and do make mistakes, and then we are just starting to learn of the evolutionary and social costs of killing large carnivores.”

The Alberta government says it hasn’t received any calls to end the hunt since the cougar controversy hit.

The province did ban the grizzly bear hunt in 2006 due to concerns about a dwindling population — although recent increases in some areas have led to calls to allow it to return in Alberta.

[mfswallace]

another link to same info originally posted

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/wildlife-management/documents/WildlifeMgmtPlan-Cougars-Nov2012B.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj-sJjblfTYAhUC62MKHZYfD2EQFgglMAA&usg=AOvVaw0nNpTdEVNohK_TQ8J1_SXi