Out of the points game

[buglebrush]

I say one choice per species, either one oil species or deer/elk. And if you draw a deer or elk tag that is your hunt, your tag is no longer valid in General season hunts. And a wait after drawing before you can apply again. 

On another subject I wish they would split the deer into species options. You choose Whitetail tag you get Whitetail seasons and permit choices, same for Muley and blacktail.

Oh and quit charging for turkey tags, just make them small game under the small game license

I’ll always apply in wa and hunt deer as long as I live here. There’s a chance of a good tag every year

That would definitely help

[bobcat]

I think a waiting period for successful applicants would be the best and most fair way to improve our system. Since we can't ever go back to the old way, of only having ONE deer category and ONE elk category, a waiting period is about all that's left to improve the system. For the users of the system that is, not the state. The state would lose money with a waiting period, so it's not likely to ever happen.

[buglebrush]

Ok.

Our hunting sucks there's no argument there from me.

My issue is what will work change for the best in our state?

Limit who can put in for the draw.

Our tags are also spread out very far.Every area to chose from.

The hunters that complain every year must all be putting in the same few areas.

Not many tag areas have these 20 point numbers in them.If you don't like the system fine quit putting in for them in WA.,Or The same highly sought after areas. Put in for a diff. area that everyone else isn't with only 2 or whatever tags coming out of them.


IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM YOU DON'T LIKE,IT'S THAT YOUR NOT GETTING DRAWN IN THE AREA YOU WANT FAST ENOUGH THAT BOTHERS THE COMPLAINERS. 

Of course it's the bloody system we don't like.  I've never drawn a good tag in Idaho, but you never heart me complain because I like the system.  If WA limited entries like Idaho does all our odds would go way up.  I would then have no complaint whether I personally drew or not.   

[Roperfive88]

That's the big problem with points - people feel like they are valuable, like they are an investment they would like to eventually cash out.

1. Points in WA are nothing other than a tally of how many years you paid for a lottery ticket and didn't win. 


2.  The odds of drawing the most popular hunts are going down every year at a faster rate than the increase of squaring your additional point improves it.

Once people realize these two things, it becomes easier to walk away from the system and put energy into hunting out of state.

 

 

Eliminate the points. Everyone is at zero. Make it so you can't Gamble on credit. If you choose to put in for the tag it's money up front.

Its already pay up front for everything except Moose, Sheep, and Goats.

[Karl Blanchard]

That's the big problem with points - people feel like they are valuable, like they are an investment they would like to eventually cash out.

1. Points in WA are nothing other than a tally of how many years you paid for a lottery ticket and didn't win. 


2.  The odds of drawing the most popular hunts are going down every year at a faster rate than the increase of squaring your additional point improves it.

Once people realize these two things, it becomes easier to walk away from the system and put energy into hunting out of state.

 

 

Eliminate the points. Everyone is at zero. Make it so you can't Gamble on credit. If you choose to put in for the tag it's money up front.

Its already pay up front for everything except Moose, Sheep, and Goats.

  I strongly believe moose sheep and goat should be up front money to apply with a refund if unsuccessful.  Also I think you should only be able to apply for one of those species at a time with options to point it for the other two.

[Stein]

I haven't seen where the pay up front makes much difference, several states have that now and they still have point creep.  99% of the people are putting it on a credit card and then getting a refund after the draw without any real pain.

Even jacking prices up doesn't have a ton of impact, at least for NR applications.  Montana pushed a huge increase a couple years ago and Wyoming did one for this year.

My opinion is you have to physically limit what people can enter for or you won't move the needle.  Actually remove opportunity to apply in exchange for more opportunity for what you do get to apply for.

I think I apply for 9 or 10 things in WA.  I would gladly trade what we have now for a system where you can send in only one application and no points for anything else. I would much prefer a system with a 10% draw chance for one tag then ten 1% draw chances for 10 different tags.  That's not actual math obviously, but the general idea.  The odds still won't be great, but right now you essentially are playing Powerball.  Someone has to draw that sheep, goat, moose, Dayton tag, but it just won't be you.

If we do it now, there is some hope, if we wait 10 years, it will be too broke and people will have too many points to accept any change - we are probably there now that I think about it.

[Duckhunter14]

I haven't seen where the pay up front makes much difference, several states have that now and they still have point creep.  99% of the people are putting it on a credit card and then getting a refund after the draw without any real pain.

Even jacking prices up doesn't have a ton of impact, at least for NR applications.  Montana pushed a huge increase a couple years ago and Wyoming did one for this year.

My opinion is you have to physically limit what people can enter for or you won't move the needle.  Actually remove opportunity to apply in exchange for more opportunity for what you do get to apply for.

I think I apply for 9 or 10 things in WA.  I would gladly trade what we have now for a system where you can send in only one application and no points for anything else. I would much prefer a system with a 10% draw chance for one tag then ten 1% draw chances for 10 different tags.  That's not actual math obviously, but the general idea.  The odds still won't be great, but right now you essentially are playing Powerball.  Someone has to draw that sheep, goat, moose, Dayton tag, but it just won't be you.

If we do it now, there is some hope, if we wait 10 years, it will be too broke and people will have too many points to accept any change - we are probably there now that I think about it.

People would lose their minds if the state came out and said that all points were now void and we were going to a no bonus point system like Idaho or New Mexico. I think a system more like Utah would be more effective at cycling out the max bonus point guys in each category, while also providing a "chance" for people with only a few points. So reserve a percentage of tags in each category to top bonus point holders to reward people who have put in year after year for many years. But also have a percentage that is completely random to the whole application pool. It will never happen unfortunately, but I do agree the system is broken. I don't put much, if any hope in drawing any WA tags and plan my year on OTC and out of state hunts. I figure I'll adjust accordingly if I do win the jackpot and draw a "quality" WA tag. But no matter how many points I accumulate, I don't get very excited during the draw because I know how screwed up our current system is.

[bullcanyon]

$$$ That's all they care about. They make more money having all these extra categories that you'll never see it go away unless we come up with a system that generates them more $$..
You think they'd get more people applying if there were less options? They will sell less applications and that's not something they're willing to let happen.

[buglebrush]

I haven't seen where the pay up front makes much difference, several states have that now and they still have point creep.  99% of the people are putting it on a credit card and then getting a refund after the draw without any real pain.

Even jacking prices up doesn't have a ton of impact, at least for NR applications.  Montana pushed a huge increase a couple years ago and Wyoming did one for this year.

My opinion is you have to physically limit what people can enter for or you won't move the needle.  Actually remove opportunity to apply in exchange for more opportunity for what you do get to apply for.

I think I apply for 9 or 10 things in WA.  I would gladly trade what we have now for a system where you can send in only one application and no points for anything else. I would much prefer a system with a 10% draw chance for one tag then ten 1% draw chances for 10 different tags.  That's not actual math obviously, but the general idea.  The odds still won't be great, but right now you essentially are playing Powerball.  Someone has to draw that sheep, goat, moose, Dayton tag, but it just won't be you.

If we do it now, there is some hope, if we wait 10 years, it will be too broke and people will have too many points to accept any change - we are probably there now that I think about it.

I completely agree with this, and people shouldn't be upset.  If they have points they're way more valuable after this change than before because it'll be so hard to accumulate them after. 

[meatwhack]

Let people buy points in every category if they want but you only get 1 choice for a hunt to apply for. F&G receives the same revenue, people can continue building points for down the road but draw odds would drastically improve.

Or you could make app fees $50 and you can only apply for one species with no option of buying points in the other species. Again F&G revenue should be similar but draw odds would be significantly better.

Whatever way you cut it the options for applications has to be drastically cut to improve draw odds.

[bobcat]

No matter what is changed, draw odds will not improve much. There will still be the same number of hunters applying for the same number of permits. It's a lot of wishful thinking, in my opinion, that any particular change will help increase a person's odds of drawing a permit.

[buglebrush]

No matter what is changed, draw odds will not improve much. There will still be the same number of hunters applying for the same number of permits. It's a lot of wishful thinking, in my opinion, that any particular change will help increase a person's odds of drawing a permit.

This is pure bologna. 

the number of hunters will be the same, and the number of permits will be the same, but the number of applications will be way way less.  I really don't have the patience to explain the math right now.   

[BULLBLASTER]

No matter what is changed, draw odds will not improve much. There will still be the same number of hunters applying for the same number of permits. It's a lot of wishful thinking, in my opinion, that any particular change will help increase a person's odds of drawing a permit.

This is pure bologna. 

the number of hunters will be the same, and the number of permits will be the same, but the number of applications will be way way less.  I really don't have the patience to explain the math right now.   

[M_ray]

No matter what is changed, draw odds will not improve much. There will still be the same number of hunters applying for the same number of permits. It's a lot of wishful thinking, in my opinion, that any particular change will help increase a person's odds of drawing a permit.

Bob I don’t get how you and others don’t understand this simple principle. There won’t be the same odds because if you can only choose one animal it takes you OUT of all other categories thus increasing the odds in all of them. The only way your odds would be the same is if you were still allowed to make 18 choices.

[Stein]

The math is pretty easy at a high level.  If you restrict the number of entries for a given tag, the odds go up.  An example would be that instead of having a 1% chance at 10 different tags, you would trade that for a 10% change for the one tag you put in for.  You have the same chance of drawing A tag, but ten times better chance of drawing THE one tag you put in for.

Another way to look at it is that you are very unlikely to draw with a 1% odds for your entire hunting life.  Likewise, you have an excellent chance of drawing a 10% tag if you put in your entire hunting life.

I would gladly trade my 9-10 entries for a system where everyone was limited to one entry.  You are trading a slim to grim chance at a bunch of tags for a much, much better chance at one tag.

The main problem is that people think they are getting ahead by accumulating a ton of points but their odds are actually going down each year.  Math can be a real bummer sometimes.