Cougar Attack Highlights Shortage of WDFW Officers

[Southpole]

If the WDFW budget is in such bad shape, how can they afford to spend 1.6 million dollars on a person to mediate the Wolf Advisory Group meetings? That is a totally unessential position that they could easily do without.

Amongst other positions/staff they may or may not need
http://fiscal.wa.gov/Salaries   click on fish and wildlife

[bigtex]

Had they released some facts on hounding and baiting back in 1996, we'd be in a whole different place right now. They didn't have to take sides. But they shirked their duty regarding information about managing wildlife. As far as the number of officers is concerned, if the administration improved the reputation of enforcement and turned over top management levels, maybe more talent would show up to play. Who wants to work for a department that's unprofessional and has been shown to not support their wildlife officers in the field? I sure wouldn't.

For your initiative statement. Agencies can't take sides on an initiative, nor can they just freely release information. What they can do is release information to the associated groups via a PDR just like any other citizen.

For officers, the issue now is simply having money to hire people. The lack of applicants is nationwide and not a WDFW only issue.

[bigtex]

I would like to see a budget produced by WDFW that separated out things that do not directly benefit Sportsmen.
There are a great many things the Department does that while maybe important are something more properly a responsibility and benefit to the general public. The most glaring example being wolf recovery but includes all endangered species, boater safety, seafood enforcement checks like in the restaurant mentioned, hydraulic permits, etc.
Yea, I realize a lot of stuff like endangered species is covered by grants but most of that is through PR and DJ grants which come mostly from Sportsmen.
So often we get it thrown in our face about funding from the General fund and the anti groups are quick to say they are paying because of the General fund portion of the budget.
I would like to know where the money goes and if I am not actually paying my way happy to endorse an increase.
I think most everyone  balks at paying  for things they do not benefit from.

Boating safety is paid by State Parks, who is actually paid by the US Coast Guard. The same entity that pays your local PD/SO to be on the water is paying WDFW. WDFW gets the equivalent funding of one officer to do boating safety.

For enforcement of recreational hunting/fishing laws it is paid for by the wildlife fund (licenses).

The enforcement of the other things (commercial fishing, market checks, etc.) is paid for by the general fund as it's seen as an issue that effects all citizens.

[pianoman9701]

Disseminating facts is not taking sides. Saying "animal rights people are wackos." is not the same as saying "Hounding and baiting allow the department to effectively manage predator numbers and allows hunters to be selective as to which animals they harvest. The repercussions of eliminating those tools is as of yet an unknown."

[bigtex]

Disseminating facts is not taking sides. Saying "animal rights people are wackos." is not the same as saying "Hounding and baiting allow the department to effectively manage predator numbers and allows hunters to be selective as to which animals they harvest. The repercussions of eliminating those tools is as of yet an unknown."

They can't!

The only way they can get the facts out there is if a separate entity does it. WDFW couldn't say what you just said. A separate entity (say the Houndsmen Assoc.) could come out and say they got all this info from WDFW and here's what it says.

Agencies can't take sides, disseminate facts, whatever you want to call it on an initiative. The reason being is the legislature doesn't want the state to be the influence on the voters.

[olyguy79]

Disseminating facts is not taking sides. Saying "animal rights people are wackos." is not the same as saying "Hounding and baiting allow the department to effectively manage predator numbers and allows hunters to be selective as to which animals they harvest. The repercussions of eliminating those tools is as of yet an unknown."

They can't!

The only way they can get the facts out there is if a separate entity does it. WDFW couldn't say what you just said. A separate entity (say the Houndsmen Assoc.) could come out and say they got all this info from WDFW and here's what it says.

Agencies can't take sides, disseminate facts, whatever you want to call it on an initiative. The reason being is the legislature doesn't want the state to be the influence on the voters.

BT is correct. Agencies are basically hogtied on initiatives. The most recent I can think of was the privatization of liquor. The Liquor Board couldn't come out and say hey the sale to minor rate will increase if this happens (which has proven to be true) instead the opposing groups to the initiative had to ask for stats from the LCB and then release it.

[Widgeondeke]

WDFW doesn't need more officers to more effectively manage predators.  Officers are only going to help AFTER someone has been chewed on. 

Frankly, if they don't start focusing on issues important to hunters and anglers they are going to find out what real budget problems look like. 

Right there, that is already a problem and it's getting worse. Hunters and fishers are fed up with WDFW management. If I was the director and commission I would seriously be looking at what to do to please my customers!  "IN A NUTSHELL" that is one of the most important issues that should be addressed!

I'm going to get heat for this but oh well. I hear all the time that people are going to quit hunting/fishing, or they already have in a way to "show it to the man." Well I'm here to tell you guys it's not working. Over the past 10 years the number of WDFW licenses sold flux up/down 1-2% a year, that's it. Some years they go up, typically corresponding with large salmon fisheries such as the pink salmon run in the Puget Sound.

The main issue isn't that the numbers of licenses sold is crashing significantly. The issue is WDFW isn't getting the general fund support they used to, and an issue we all know is that money doesn't go as far as it once did. A hundred bucks in 2018 doesn't go as far as it did in 2010, 2005, or 1995. The cost of operations are going up, but the funding isn't, that's the overall problem.

I'm not giving you heat  but I do want to reply to your points. The commission created numerous additional avenues of revenue with all the additional permit applications. This should have increased revenue substantially, instead as you say it has only fluctuated 1%-2%, this tells me they are losing customers in other areas or the increase would be greater. 

If you aren't keeping up with your budget you are losing!

"This should have increased revenue substantially"

I completely disagree. A bunch (yes I know it's probably thousands) of $7 application fees isn't going to fix a multi-million dollar problem. WDFW's looking at a 25 million dollar cut starting July 2019. A 25 million dollar cut would be the equivalent of nearly dissolving the entire wildlife or enforcement divisions within WDFW. WDFW would need about 115,000 new people to purchase the new "fish Washington", big game combo w/ small game, turkey, and migratory bird to cover that deficit. Obviously that's not going to happen either.

If the entire enforcement division only operates on $25,000,000. Where the heck is the other $300+ million going? 

[pianoman9701]

Fisheries, administration, breeding and hatcheries, wildlife relocation, education, logistics, on and on. I'm not saying the money is being well-managed. 

[bigtex]

WDFW doesn't need more officers to more effectively manage predators.  Officers are only going to help AFTER someone has been chewed on. 

Frankly, if they don't start focusing on issues important to hunters and anglers they are going to find out what real budget problems look like. 

Right there, that is already a problem and it's getting worse. Hunters and fishers are fed up with WDFW management. If I was the director and commission I would seriously be looking at what to do to please my customers!  "IN A NUTSHELL" that is one of the most important issues that should be addressed!

I'm going to get heat for this but oh well. I hear all the time that people are going to quit hunting/fishing, or they already have in a way to "show it to the man." Well I'm here to tell you guys it's not working. Over the past 10 years the number of WDFW licenses sold flux up/down 1-2% a year, that's it. Some years they go up, typically corresponding with large salmon fisheries such as the pink salmon run in the Puget Sound.

The main issue isn't that the numbers of licenses sold is crashing significantly. The issue is WDFW isn't getting the general fund support they used to, and an issue we all know is that money doesn't go as far as it once did. A hundred bucks in 2018 doesn't go as far as it did in 2010, 2005, or 1995. The cost of operations are going up, but the funding isn't, that's the overall problem.

I'm not giving you heat  but I do want to reply to your points. The commission created numerous additional avenues of revenue with all the additional permit applications. This should have increased revenue substantially, instead as you say it has only fluctuated 1%-2%, this tells me they are losing customers in other areas or the increase would be greater. 

If you aren't keeping up with your budget you are losing!

"This should have increased revenue substantially"

I completely disagree. A bunch (yes I know it's probably thousands) of $7 application fees isn't going to fix a multi-million dollar problem. WDFW's looking at a 25 million dollar cut starting July 2019. A 25 million dollar cut would be the equivalent of nearly dissolving the entire wildlife or enforcement divisions within WDFW. WDFW would need about 115,000 new people to purchase the new "fish Washington", big game combo w/ small game, turkey, and migratory bird to cover that deficit. Obviously that's not going to happen either.

If the entire enforcement division only operates on $25,000,000. Where the heck is the other $300+ million going? 

https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/

[bearpaw]

If the WDFW budget is in such bad shape, how can they afford to spend 1.6 million dollars on a person to mediate the Wolf Advisory Group meetings? That is a totally unessential position that they could easily do without.

I agree, that was not a legislatively mandated position, it was a management decision and a perfect example why they are in trouble with their budget. One of the reasons I won't be asking my legislators to fund WDFW, if anything to cut their funding until WDFW takes care of their customers.

Its going to take a whole bunch more incidents and you can bet they will find a way to blame it on hunting

I would like to see a budget produced by WDFW that separated out things that do not directly benefit Sportsmen.
There are a great many things the Department does that while maybe important are something more properly a responsibility and benefit to the general public. The most glaring example being wolf recovery but includes all endangered species, boater safety, seafood enforcement checks like in the restaurant mentioned, hydraulic permits, etc.
Yea, I realize a lot of stuff like endangered species is covered by grants but most of that is through PR and DJ grants which come mostly from Sportsmen.
So often we get it thrown in our face about funding from the General fund and the anti groups are quick to say they are paying because of the General fund portion of the budget.
I would like to know where the money goes and if I am not actually paying my way happy to endorse an increase.
I think most everyone  balks at paying  for things they do not benefit from.

Agreed, I don't mind paying non-resident fees to other states because I get what i'm paying for!

[idahohuntr]

WDFW doesn't need more officers to more effectively manage predators.  Officers are only going to help AFTER someone has been chewed on. 

Frankly, if they don't start focusing on issues important to hunters and anglers they are going to find out what real budget problems look like. 

Right there, that is already a problem and it's getting worse. Hunters and fishers are fed up with WDFW management. If I was the director and commission I would seriously be looking at what to do to please my customers!  "IN A NUTSHELL" that is one of the most important issues that should be addressed!

I'm going to get heat for this but oh well. I hear all the time that people are going to quit hunting/fishing, or they already have in a way to "show it to the man." Well I'm here to tell you guys it's not working. Over the past 10 years the number of WDFW licenses sold flux up/down 1-2% a year, that's it. Some years they go up, typically corresponding with large salmon fisheries such as the pink salmon run in the Puget Sound.

The main issue isn't that the numbers of licenses sold is crashing significantly. The issue is WDFW isn't getting the general fund support they used to, and an issue we all know is that money doesn't go as far as it once did. A hundred bucks in 2018 doesn't go as far as it did in 2010, 2005, or 1995. The cost of operations are going up, but the funding isn't, that's the overall problem.

I'm not giving you heat  but I do want to reply to your points. The commission created numerous additional avenues of revenue with all the additional permit applications. This should have increased revenue substantially, instead as you say it has only fluctuated 1%-2%, this tells me they are losing customers in other areas or the increase would be greater. 

If you aren't keeping up with your budget you are losing!

"This should have increased revenue substantially"

I completely disagree. A bunch (yes I know it's probably thousands) of $7 application fees isn't going to fix a multi-million dollar problem. WDFW's looking at a 25 million dollar cut starting July 2019. A 25 million dollar cut would be the equivalent of nearly dissolving the entire wildlife or enforcement divisions within WDFW. WDFW would need about 115,000 new people to purchase the new "fish Washington", big game combo w/ small game, turkey, and migratory bird to cover that deficit. Obviously that's not going to happen either.

As someone who works on budgets in the legislature I can tell you that if the legislature keeps to their promise of continuing to decrease the amount of general fund money, and not continue the one-time disbursement of general fund money they did in 2018, WDFW will be neutered starting in July 2019. Quite simply, a increase in license fees isn't going to fix it either. A 25M cut is huge. WDFW lands will no longer be maintained how they are, WDFW Officer slots will continue to go unfilled, some WDFW Officers may be laid off. It'll essentially be a new WDFW. If you're upset with how things are running now, it'll be worse starting July 2019.

Just to clarify I didn't say it would fix their whole budget.  I said they are losing when they should be gaining more, let's just be clear on what is actually being said! 

To address your points, they are losing more significantly by ignoring their customers because I for one will not be calling my legislators asking them to give WDFW more money to waste on wolves. If anything I'm going to be telling my legislators to cut their funding until they start taking care of their customers! I'm willing to bet there are other customers who feel the same way. 

For the record, I have been very vocal with my legislators through the years!

Precisely...it won't just be a decline of hunters buying apps and licenses (because other states offer a better experience)...it will be hunters shrugging when they ask for legislative support...or even more problematic...when sportsmen get fed up and say cut their budget!  With 1.6 mil for a facilitator, they obviously have too much money.   

[Special T]

One of the largest complaints about WDFW Enforcement is the expanded duties they've taken on over the years. Some have been forced upon them by the legislature, others WDFW have often taken in order to get more money (such as boating enforcement). However, this isn't only a WDFW thing. You can look at every state's wildlife enforcement program and see activities/disciplines they work in and think to yourself "why is that under the purview of the game warden?" A couple examples:

-In the New England states Search & Rescue is the responsibility of the game wardens. Doesn't matter if it's a hunter who is lost or little Tommy. Once SAR is activated it's the game warden's show
-In Florida game wardens are responsible for enforcing speed laws in Florida panther zones during night hours. Basically there is a daytime speed limit and a night time speed limit in panther areas. It's the wardens enforcing it.
-In California wardens are responsible for enforcing oil spills. A new task is that wardens are now the ones issuing permits for marijuana grows.
-In the Midwest many states have their game wardens also take on the state park ranger role. Essentially their first task is the park, when they can they are able to go throughout the state and work off-park fish/wildlife work

One common thing nationwide though is unfunded mandates. The legislature of the state comes up with new laws, wants the game wardens to enforce it, but doesn't give them any new money to do it. Essentially its the old "do more with less" concept.

I was going to bring up the unfunded mandate part.  Is there a break down as to how much time is spent for these unfunded mandates?

This is a very specific beef we should all have. If sportsmen are pay half the bill how much  time is being spent on other stuff
?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ipkus]

Bearpaw is exactly right with almost all of his points.

So is bigtex on one point.  WDFW thinks you all are stupid enough to keep paying (and they want you to pay even more) for less.  Less deer, less elk, less salmon, less.  They are betting essentially the Department's financial future on it.  I don't know exactly where it's at, but there is a breaking point coming.  And unless the mindset within upper management at WDFW changes, it is going to suck for all of us.  WDFW employees, hunters, wolf lovers, fisherpeople, etc.

[bearpaw]

One of the largest complaints about WDFW Enforcement is the expanded duties they've taken on over the years. Some have been forced upon them by the legislature, others WDFW have often taken in order to get more money (such as boating enforcement). However, this isn't only a WDFW thing. You can look at every state's wildlife enforcement program and see activities/disciplines they work in and think to yourself "why is that under the purview of the game warden?" A couple examples:

-In the New England states Search & Rescue is the responsibility of the game wardens. Doesn't matter if it's a hunter who is lost or little Tommy. Once SAR is activated it's the game warden's show
-In Florida game wardens are responsible for enforcing speed laws in Florida panther zones during night hours. Basically there is a daytime speed limit and a night time speed limit in panther areas. It's the wardens enforcing it.
-In California wardens are responsible for enforcing oil spills. A new task is that wardens are now the ones issuing permits for marijuana grows.
-In the Midwest many states have their game wardens also take on the state park ranger role. Essentially their first task is the park, when they can they are able to go throughout the state and work off-park fish/wildlife work

One common thing nationwide though is unfunded mandates. The legislature of the state comes up with new laws, wants the game wardens to enforce it, but doesn't give them any new money to do it. Essentially its the old "do more with less" concept.

I was going to bring up the unfunded mandate part.  Is there a break down as to how much time is spent for these unfunded mandates?

This is a very specific beef we should all have. If sportsmen are pay half the bill how much  time is being spent on other stuff
?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Humptulips made a good point about this too, budget items need separated so we know what is being paid by sports folks. Most of the mandated endangered species stuff should be funded by general fund.

I would like to see a budget produced by WDFW that separated out things that do not directly benefit Sportsmen.
There are a great many things the Department does that while maybe important are something more properly a responsibility and benefit to the general public. The most glaring example being wolf recovery but includes all endangered species, boater safety, seafood enforcement checks like in the restaurant mentioned, hydraulic permits, etc.
Yea, I realize a lot of stuff like endangered species is covered by grants but most of that is through PR and DJ grants which come mostly from Sportsmen.
So often we get it thrown in our face about funding from the General fund and the anti groups are quick to say they are paying because of the General fund portion of the budget.
I would like to know where the money goes and if I am not actually paying my way happy to endorse an increase.
I think most everyone  balks at paying  for things they do not benefit from.

[bigtex]

One of the largest complaints about WDFW Enforcement is the expanded duties they've taken on over the years. Some have been forced upon them by the legislature, others WDFW have often taken in order to get more money (such as boating enforcement). However, this isn't only a WDFW thing. You can look at every state's wildlife enforcement program and see activities/disciplines they work in and think to yourself "why is that under the purview of the game warden?" A couple examples:

-In the New England states Search & Rescue is the responsibility of the game wardens. Doesn't matter if it's a hunter who is lost or little Tommy. Once SAR is activated it's the game warden's show
-In Florida game wardens are responsible for enforcing speed laws in Florida panther zones during night hours. Basically there is a daytime speed limit and a night time speed limit in panther areas. It's the wardens enforcing it.
-In California wardens are responsible for enforcing oil spills. A new task is that wardens are now the ones issuing permits for marijuana grows.
-In the Midwest many states have their game wardens also take on the state park ranger role. Essentially their first task is the park, when they can they are able to go throughout the state and work off-park fish/wildlife work

One common thing nationwide though is unfunded mandates. The legislature of the state comes up with new laws, wants the game wardens to enforce it, but doesn't give them any new money to do it. Essentially its the old "do more with less" concept.

I was going to bring up the unfunded mandate part.  Is there a break down as to how much time is spent for these unfunded mandates?

This is a very specific beef we should all have. If sportsmen are pay half the bill how much  time is being spent on other stuff
?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Humptulips made a good point about this too, budget items need separated so we know what is being paid by sports folks. Most of the mandated endangered species stuff should be funded by general fund.

And the answer to H's question was provided