Got opinions on WA deer management?

[KFhunter]

I think we need to focus on quantity now rather than quality.  I just don't think hunting pressure is a big factor in overall population of deer unless there's too many doe tags. 

Keep them does protected and they'll make bucks, make enough bucks and the quality will come back. 

[huntnnw]

the quantity will never be what it was with rules and regs as they stand with the sheer amount of pressure these days is insane compared to just 20 years ago. The resources available and info shared online today along with apps  onx, basemap, hunting mags etc.. have made it very easy to find places to hunt as where it use to take alot of work in the past to find public chunks that not alot knew about.  High end optics, rangefinders, LR rifles, super accurate muzzys have made each hunter more proficient.

[huntnphool]

Of all the western states with mule deer excluding CA we have the highest population of people the fewest acres of habitiat for mule deer and then add in huntable amount of acres for the avg hunter who doesnt have the luxury of hunting private and you are cramming alot of hunters into small areas. Yet its a general free for all with a rifle!

 You missed the biggest determining factor, WDFW shortening the season to one week, forcing everyone that hunts the eastside to all take the same week off and hunt. This leaves virtually zero escapement for any legal buck in the popular lower units.

 Many hate hearing about years past, but the numbers are relevant. We used to hunt the general season through the first week of November, significantly more hunters than today, yet we seldom ran into more than a handful of hunters in a weeks time.

 Today, with everyone being forced to leave work and hunt the exact same week, is it any wonder that it's a zoo of orange, with zero young 3 point+ bucks in those units surviving to breed?

 

[huntnnw]

  Areas I have hunted that are real S#*&  holes in the past couple years I have seen exactly 0 hunters and sit glassing relatively open super steep country and are lucky to turn up a deer!  what should be excellent habitat and every draw should hold deer yet they are void of wildlife.

[Humptulips]

Areas I have hunted that are real S#*&  holes in the past couple years I have seen exactly 0 hunters and sit glassing relatively open super steep country and are lucky to turn up a deer!  what should be excellent habitat and every draw should hold deer yet they are void of wildlife.

So zero hunters in these holes but still no deer? Maybe it is not the hunters that are to blame for the lack of deer, well, two legged hunters anyway.

[spin05]

Well i was in denial till this seasons late archery hunt in our area. But this is the worst year we have had for buck numbers. Seemed to be alot of doe's and 2 pts around but not much legal.  Dont know what the answer is to it. We saw more predators or predator sign then ever before.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well did you experience the same thing I heard about from 2 other late archery hunters? I am not going to call them hunters but archery guys launching 100 yard shots and running around with few arrows left in their quivers? Those guys have poor ethics and no business being out there. Pathetic

[Sandberm]

I've got 8 straight years doing the late archery hunt in the same unit. I'm seeing probably 50-70% less deer than "normal" this year. Like others have posted the majority of the few bucks I've seen have been 2x2's.

[idahohuntr]

There seems to be at least a few issues folks are consistently saying:

1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units.  I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill.  And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.

And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas.  So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.

For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless someone can, with a straight face, explain to me how predators are selectively targeting 3+ point bucks and leaving all the other deer alone.  Unlike protecting winter range and removing more predators...the potential solutions to more mature bucks is something that splits hunter opinion pretty sharply.  There are a fair number of small bucks killed by a bunch of hunters every year...and if you don't care about buck size, shooting a small 3 point every year means the system is working for you.  However, folks that would prefer greater opportunity at more mature bucks are far more willing to go to a permit system or restrict overall harvest so there could be more mature bucks...but I'm not sure we are in the majority and/or if WDFW would entertain an idea that might mean fewer license sales.

So...I guess I don't see a lot of predator or winter habitat actions in the near future...and I don't see the level of support for actions that could improve buck age/size in units that are not struggling as a result of other factors...so I see more of the same and not much chance at change.  Anyone else have a more optimistic view?  The only bright side I see is that more easy winters will definitely have deer rebounding and I'm seeing a good number of small WT bucks that have me a little more optimistic for WT hunting to really pick up again in the near future in the areas I hunt. 

[Dhoey07]

There seems to be at least a few issues folks are consistently saying:

1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units.  I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill.  And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.

And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas.  So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.

For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless

If there was a higher than normal winter kill 2 years ago then it would lead to fewer mature deer right now. Low survival rate for fawns two years ago would be 3+ points right now. 

[bigmacc]

Pick your species(whitetail, blackie or muley), make it 2 week seasons again in the Premier muley units(Methow, Entiat, Swakane, Chiwawa, etc.) but cut out all quality hunts in these units and go to an every other year scenario based on odd-even numbers of the last digit of wild I.D, if its your year and you choose to hunt mule deer in one of the premier units you pay a little more for that deer tag to compensate for the lost revenue of the quality hunt options that have been discontinued in those units(so, if its your year to hunt one of those units maybe the tag costs $100.00 ) and if you opt out on your year you can still hunt whitetail or blacktail or mule deer in other parts of the state but you will have to wait 2 years to hunt one of the premier areas again. Going to an every other year system in the top shelf muley units would cut down on pressure and going back to a 2 week season in those  units would spread out the pressure even more. As far as predators go, they are out of control and seem to be getting worse in a lot of areas, buy bear and cougar tags and kill every yote you see, back in the day(at least in the Methow) it was a real oddity to see a bear or cougar while out deer hunting, not any more! Hey, we are all throwing mud at the wall, we all have different ideas, its good to have conversation about this, like I said in an earlier post we need to tell it to the right people(in person, emails etc.) and we need to be persistent, eventually some of the mud might stick ...

[KFhunter]

There seems to be at least a few issues folks are consistently saying:

1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units.  I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill.  And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.

And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas.  So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.

For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless someone can, with a straight face, explain to me how predators are selectively targeting 3+ point bucks and leaving all the other deer alone.  Unlike protecting winter range and removing more predators...the potential solutions to more mature bucks is something that splits hunter opinion pretty sharply.  There are a fair number of small bucks killed by a bunch of hunters every year...and if you don't care about buck size, shooting a small 3 point every year means the system is working for you.  However, folks that would prefer greater opportunity at more mature bucks are far more willing to go to a permit system or restrict overall harvest so there could be more mature bucks...but I'm not sure we are in the majority and/or if WDFW would entertain an idea that might mean fewer license sales.

So...I guess I don't see a lot of predator or winter habitat actions in the near future...and I don't see the level of support for actions that could improve buck age/size in units that are not struggling as a result of other factors...so I see more of the same and not much chance at change.  Anyone else have a more optimistic view?  The only bright side I see is that more easy winters will definitely have deer rebounding and I'm seeing a good number of small WT bucks that have me a little more optimistic for WT hunting to really pick up again in the near future in the areas I hunt.

I don't have a very positive view, we can't do anything about winter kills, my only beef with "winter kills" is proclaiming winter kill got a herd while ignoring contributing factors be it forest fires, predator movement, disease, ticks etc.  Almost always with winter kill there's contributing factors, yet when we hear "winter kill" it evokes visions of deep snow and starving animals when often times it's just cold, wet and full of predators or diseases or lack of browse due to fires.  I would support feeding programs to mitigate "fire kill" the following winter and I support post fire seeding to plant native grasses and shrubs.  For ticks and other things some of it is just beyond our control.  I know many decry habitat as a factor of herd size but personally I feel the habitat in most areas is not the limiting factor, I would love for our herds to be at a point where habitat is the biggest issue, but we're a long ways from that. 
Habitat can always be improved, but if other factors are limiting herd growth and size we need to focus that first and foremost. 

For predators the committee proposed an increase in the Cougar harvest which was struck down by Jay Inslee because it did not have a public input period therefore violating the rules process, they need to fix that and increase the harvest quota for a first step but that won't be nearly enough.  I love the idea of allowing Cougar to be classified both as fur bearer and big game animal, and be trapped and hunted, I have no idea how likely that is to succeed but I fully support it.  We also need to quit counting problem lions that are killed because they're attacking livestock or stalking kids, quit counting them against the GMU's quota's for the year!



As for Coyotes and other predators I've been floating the idea around of PIP's (predator incentive points) to be applied towards quality hunts, the idea is that a hunter kills enough predators they've earned a chance at a quality buck or even elk if they've taken mt lion from areas not meeting elk population goals. If the idea of PIP's ever gained traction I'd love to discuss particulars, but at this point just acknowledging a predator problem would be a big step for WDFW. 

For bucks 3pt rule vs no 3pt rule I don't care if people get a wall hanging trophy or not, if anything a lack of huge bucks will make the successful hunters stand out more.  Go to Montana, huge mule bucks are everywhere and it's no big deal to get a nice buck that would be a trophy in WA.  What I don't like about a 3pt rule being in place for generations is that huge forkies will be the main breeders as anything with 4pts will be killed off, in time we'll see a genetic shift towards big forkies.  Maybe I would support a 3pt maximum rule for OTC hunters, that would benefit bucks that grow 4 pts quickly, then 4pt and larger for quality hunts or PIP hunters 

The only thing I care about is getting the does pregnant and putting as many fawns on the ground as possible (which would fix the lack of big bucks issue in time) if we killed coyotes more fawns would live and this includes those pronghorn fawns, their #1 enemy is coyotes for bedded fawns, once they get their legs there isn't much out there to take them.  Pronghorn do very well in wolf infested areas so there is that, kinda funny the one beneficial thing to wolves is an increased chance the pronghorn will thrive.  WY has prong out the wazzu, and that's because they aggressively kill coyotes.  I do not support anything that has the potential to make people throw in the towel and quit hunting in WA, hunters throw out a lot of conservation funds yet are underrepresented.  Same with sport fishing.

If we better protected our herds from predators we could have very good hunting in WA. 

[bigmacc]

I like your idea about predators and the PIP program and as far as the 3 point system for muleys, I agree they should not go on for generations, I have been a flag waiver for "mixing it up", for instance when needed and when setting the 3 year blocks put in a 3 point or better for a 6 or 9 period and then if needed go 2 point only for a season or two but don't pick just one and let it role or etch it in stone. IMHO, there still needs to be a different system for mule deer in this state, at least in the prime units(every other year/discontinue quality tags), and a plan that helps decrease predators.

[Ridgeratt]

Late deer harvest numbers down; WDFW plans to reduce antlerless permits
Fri., Nov. 30, 2018, 6 a.m.
 
If hunter stories and check station results are accurate, the 2018 rifle deer season was a slow one.
“Just in general it seemed like a pretty slow season,” said Annemarie Prince, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist for District 1. “Our hunter numbers at the check stations seemed about normal. I don’t think there has been a drastic decline in hunters.”
Ninety-six hunters came through WDFW’s Deer Park check station during the late deer season (Nov. 10-19). Those hunters checked 16 white-tailed bucks for a success rate of 16.6 percent. In 2017, 124 hunters bagged 43 bucks for a 34.7 percent success rate, Prince said. In 2016, 79 hunters took 17 deer for a 22 percent success rate.
Prince emphasized that check station results are not the final determination. Mandatory hunter surveys will give WDFW officials a better sense of the season, but those numbers won’t be reported until the end of January.
Matt Mimnaugh, a board member of the Inland Northwest Wildlife Council and the chairman of the big game committee, said he’s heard from other hunters that hunting was slow.
In particular, he said he noticed the rut started about a week later than normal. Normally, the rut begins around Nov. 15.
“It seemed like everything was a little late,” he said. “About a week late this year for whatever reason.”
Mimbaugh, who’d just returned from hunting the late archery season, said he saw legal deer, but he also saw plenty of wolf tracks. He was hunting in game management unit 101 in Ferry County.
“Obviously, there are some wolves up there,” he said. “I actually got to hear them from my tree stand several nights howling.”
Prince hesitated to speculate on why numbers were down, but weather may have played a role. A dry summer and fall may have pushed the deer lower into the valley floors, making traditional hunting spots less than ideal.
“You know, I heard from some other folks that they did see deer, but they were all down in the valley bottoms, which makes sense if there was not enough food,” she said.
The opening weekend (Oct. 13) for general deer season was good, although hot and dry weather the following weekend put a damper on hunting. In Chewelah, 49 hunters stopped at the check station during that opening weekend.
They brought in eight white-tailed deer (two buck and six does) and two mule deer bucks. The Chewelah station also saw two cougars and two turkeys.
In Deer Park, 127 hunters stopped on opening weekend. WDFW officials checked 35 white-tailed deer (24 bucks and 11 does) and three mule deer bucks. In 2017 174 hunters stopped in Deer Park checking in 25 white-tailed deer and three mule deer.


Anterless permit reduction planned


One management change is expected next year, Prince said. The number of anterless deer permits will be cut in third.
This was the first year in a long time that anterless permits have been offered in Northeast Washington. Because WDFW doesn’t have past years of data to compare and contrast, Prince said the agency is acting conservatively by reducing the number of permits in 2019.
In 2018, WDFW offered 630 anterless permits. In 2019, they will offer about 200.
“Our permits get adjusted every year,” she said. “The longer we have them, the more informed they become.”


Sounds like they have quit doing wildlife surveys and rely on the hunter's for the stats. Just like they want us to keep them informed on Moose sightings.


http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/nov/30/late-deer-numbers-down-wdfw-plans-to-reduce-anterl/

Another case of reduced opportunity and then to increase the fee's.

[KFhunter]

Sucks, but it needs to happen.  I agree with it 100%


Maybe this new study will shed some light in the new predator/deer dynamic and see if there really are fewer bucks.  I would like to see if bucks are being killed because they tend to hang higher longer and spend more time in predator kill zones, maybe the predator competition over shrinking resources is what's doing the bucks in.   Doe's are safer out in farmer's fields then a mile or two up in the woods.