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Author Topic: blacktail deer pre-rut  (Read 52322 times)

Offline fishnfur

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Re: blacktail deer pre-rut
« Reply #270 on: November 22, 2018, 11:53:12 PM »
Looks like he posed for that photo.  Is that a taxidermy mount - he looks like he's in a trance.  Super nice buck.  I love the trash.

There definitely a lot of bucks being caught out chasing in the last couple days.  Strange year.....
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline blackveltbowhunter

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Re: blacktail deer pre-rut
« Reply #271 on: November 23, 2018, 07:58:02 AM »
ttt - A little CPR and cardioversion - I'm just not ready for this thread to die quite yet.  :'(

   I am with ya :tup: This one has been fun, thanks for all your contributions. :)

   One thing I have always wondered about is the impact that harvest has on the rut, and I plan to do some more research in the off season as to how the rut dynamic in the BT world works.   

    IMO very few does get bred by spikes, while it does happen I believe it is a more or less commonly believed assertion that the doe WANTS to be bred by the strongest buck in a given area. Or at the least a strong buck. I have witnessed enough doe get dogged by young bucks, only to change their tune as soon as a 3.5 or better buck showed and begin acting receptive to believe this is the case.  This is during November outside of general seasons BT and observed in mule deer. This also coincides with the type of deer we as hunters often target. So in a year such as this where we see a significant take of this type of deer early on in the breeding season what are the implications to the rut intensity and herd dynamic.

Here is a rudimentary example....

   So lets say a hunter is hunting a mile long drainage of mixed habitat, with a population of 15 deer. 7 are breeding age does. 4 are this seasons fawns, and 4 are bucks. A spike and young 2 point, a 3.5 year old 2x3 who is no slouch and a monster 3 point of unknown age. Life begins to get weird in the canyon mid October as testerone starts flowing and bucks begin seeking the does. But its relatively warm and deer movement is relegated to mainly the night shift. In this 3rd week a couple doe gets squirrelly and 2 of them are bred. One by the 2x3 and another by the big buck.  The weather conditions from hunters perspective improve drastically with cooler temps, rain and cloud cover coinciding with the last week of the October and the estrous does becoming more active. Rutting activity is a flurry at this point and The hunter sees the younger bucks but chooses to pass. Then with 3 days left of season he catches the 2x3 sneaking through a creek bottom with a doe and takes him. At this point there is Multiple options as to how the rut COULD play out in this little canyon. What are thoughts on where it goes from here?

   My thought is it rut activity significantly drops for a myriad of reasons. Without the 2x3 around the bigger buck has no competition. The does are not ready to stand for either of the young bucks and the bigger buck because he can only cover one doe at a time gets one more doe bred, but misses the first heat cycle of the 4 remaining does who become receptive on Halloween and through the 5th of November. The younger bucks have now left the drainage looking for new girls, and the bigger buck is on the rotation coming into scent check the canyon while tending adjacent areas. You could easily replace the 2x3 with the big buck IMO the same result occurs with the added issue of the 2x3 being younger possibly being more apt to leave early from the canyon he has is most familiar with. Thoughts?

   

Offline fishnfur

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Re: blacktail deer pre-rut
« Reply #272 on: November 23, 2018, 12:53:32 PM »
I'm thinking that my head hurts thinking about it!   :chuckle:  Too much turkey and vino perhaps.

Population dynamics and BT deer movement during the rut is dicey stuff to consider - Researchers have spent very little (none?) time on it .  I gave up looking for studies on BTs and rutting behaviors quite awhile back.  There is one good article on JSTOR, a Journal of Mammology study on BT population dynamics.  I think it was based in the Trinity Alps, though I'm not sure on that, but that study had nothing to do with the rut.  I found that if I wanted to understand deer movement issues during the rut, I had to study WTs, since there is literally mountains of studies on that species.  I had to accept that though the species are not identical, they share enough similar behaviors that I could then infer what was happening, or what I was seeing in the BT world.  I think that is where you might want to spend some time too.  Googling "scholarly articles for" and then whatever phrase you're interested in following that will get you off to a good start.

My thoughts on your scenario, based on my (inferred) understanding of deer movement during the rut, with a couple of blanket statements to start:

1. I'm working from memory and a mental conglomeration of information gained through five or six years of readings on the topic.  I believe what I'm writing is correct, though I cannot guarantee it.  In some cases, field observations or studies by other researchers may refute what I've accepted as factual.  In many cases though, I've already read those research articles or abstracts of studies and accepted or rejected them myself.

2.  Every buck is an individual.  They have different personalities and are totally unpredictable (as a group) in how they will respond to any given situation.  The same individual may respond the same way every time a situation comes up, but it will likely be different from how other animals react to that same situation.  For example, some bucks may only participate in a short portion of the entire breeding season, while others may stay active into the winter months.

3. Bucks leave their maternal family and move to a new territory typically during the spring or summer of their first year, though sometimes they may stay with their family into the second year.  Young BTs relocate, on average, somewhere around four miles, but as much as twelve or more miles from their birth place.  They seem to find an area with a population structure suitable to their liking in an elevation and ecosystem that they prefer.  They develop relationships with the older/mature deer in their new homes and fall into the social structure in the lower ranks of dominance.

4. Bucks form bachelor groups in spring or early summer and over the course of several months re-establish dominance rankings amongst themselves, and become familiar with the scent of all the other deer within the local and (likely) closely adjacent herds.  Though every buck is an individual, it is generally accepted that they spend the majority of their lives within a square mile area, plus or minus.  The deer in that bachelor herd have overlapping but not identical territories.  Likely the level of dominance established early on determines which buck gets the best bedding areas, the best core zone areas when they break up, and ultimately, the best breeding areas.   The others work the fringes of the intersecting territories or follow the leader as a subordinate.

So given your scenario, I believe that you are correct that the early loss of one of the more dominant bucks may leave some does untended to during an early/first estrus period, and perhaps a resultant perceived reduction in rut activity (from our point of view) in that local area.  When we read this forum though, we often accept spikes and small forkies harassing does as rutting activity.  I believe that would still be the case in your scenario too, even if no actual breeding takes place, the onset of estrus would have the young bucks acting as expected.

What we don't know is how bucks really travel during the rut.  My understanding or interpretation is that once the does really start popping, the bucks will search often well outside their normal territories for hot does.  My belief is that the younger bucks likely stay resident and hope for a chance to breed a doe in the absence of a dominant buck.  It is likely the 3.5 - 7.5 or 8.5 year old bucks that do a lot of travelling once the does in their own territories are no longer hot.  Anywhere they go, they are dominant enough for a doe to accept them as a suitable breeder, though they may still have to compete for that doe in the presence of several mature bucks.  Given your scenario, after the initial first estrus and assuming other mature bucks are coming and going from adjacent areas into your drainage, there should be enough buck traffic to serve the needs of your seven mature does by the end of the second estrus.   In a situation where there are not enough dominant bucks in the region to serve the needs of all the does, I believe that a persistent year-and-a-half old buck will eventually be allowed to breed a mature doe.  She has no other choice.

I'm not sure if that answers your questions, nor whether it is entirely correct.  I believe it is correct in general, but perhaps not for each individual doe or buck. 

Sidenote:  just an observation from Oct. 30th up in Mason.  I was working in my privately owned clearcut and found a fresh rub and decided to put a cam on it.  I went in and was very noisy removing brush and breaking limbs off the tree I was going to hang the cam on.  I placed the cam and walked maybe 25 yards to leave and noticed movement behind me.  A doe came straight to where I hung the cam (wrong side - I got no video) and seconds later, I saw that she had a decent, not large, forkie in tow.  I watched them head into the bush, attempted to follow them for a few seconds, then eventually turned to leave.  I found that they had circled and she headed back out into the cut in order to cross to the other side, the poor buck looking embarrassed that he had no choice but to follow her out into the wide-open space with a human close by.  After the fact, I felt like she intentionally came to my noise looking/hoping for a better buck whom she thought was tearing up the place.  I'm betting that if a more dominant buck had been there for her, that smaller buck with her would have been out, and the bigger better version in. (Women!) 

Sidenote2 - no bucks hit that rub in the next three weeks.  Only one buck and several doe came through.  Rubbing behavior seems to stop once the rut is on.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 01:30:57 PM by fishnfur »
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline fishnfur

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Re: blacktail deer pre-rut
« Reply #273 on: November 23, 2018, 03:00:37 PM »
...and just to keep me scratching my head, the bucks seem to be back into bachelor groups.  I had a doe and two fawns come in just after dark last night.  Ninety minutes later, the three-point comes in and feeds on apples and fallen apple leaves.   He returns sometime before midnight, then again at 1245 AM.   Then he, the big four, and some apparent three-point buck I haven't seen this year all show up at 0530 and generally nibble a bit and stand around a lot.  I expected some level of activity this year, this late, but this is way out of bounds for what I consider a normal year around here.  Perhaps the colder weather has them seeking calories rather than girls.
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline deerhunter_98520

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Re: blacktail deer pre-rut
« Reply #274 on: November 23, 2018, 05:52:44 PM »
I seen a mature lone doe bedded in a fresh cut today....she had one droopy ear and was right on top of a ridge so I tossed a rock down in the bottom and all hell broke lose right below me and about 60 yds from the doe, a huge 3pt busted out of the cut at Mach 5.....was not expecting to see a buck of that caliber bedded in the cut at 1pm lol
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