Permit quotas

[Oh Mah]

  how many calves are you seeing?@ BULLBLASTER.

[Oh Mah]

Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!

Read em and weep:

Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag

20 points  2.43%
15 points  1.38%
10 points  0.6%
5   points  0.15%

That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.

Have a nice day.
 

These odds don't help your argument at all.It only shows that there is a def. crisis  (NOT MANUFACTURED EITHER)if you want to add to what you think the problem is other than wolves cougars and climate then i don't see how you are helping here.

[BULLBLASTER]

how many calves are you seeing?@ BULLBLASTER.

I didn’t pay a lot of attention to calf or cow numbers as we were hunting bulls but all of the cow groups we came across had at least one bull harassing them. One of the larger groups we got into had 20+ cows and calves for sure.

[birddogdad]

Wolves, natives, climate, permits.  Only management tool they can control is permits.  At least they recognize the decline.

this

[Stein]

We are arguing about the problem because:

a) we don't know if there is a problem or not - nobody has an accurate count, and
b) there is no plan to address the problem if there is one (or even plans to come up with a plan).

Both of those are statutory mandates on The Department of Fish & Wildlife.  What we really need to do is figure out how to get them to do their job as none of us has the ability or power do do it without them.

The same could be said for mule deer, moose, caribou (up until they went bye bye) and probably other things.

[Mr Mykiss]

Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!

Read em and weep:

Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag

20 points  2.43%
15 points  1.38%
10 points  0.6%
5   points  0.15%

That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.

Have a nice day.
 

These odds don't help your argument at all.It only shows that there is a def. crisis  (NOT MANUFACTURED EITHER)if you want to add to what you think the problem is other than wolves cougars and climate then i don't see how you are helping here.

It wasn't an argument bud. It was a statement of fact.

[Oh Mah]

  It is obvious facts don't belong here.

[Oh Mah]

We are arguing about the problem because:

a) we don't know if there is a problem or not - nobody has an accurate count, and
b) there is no plan to address the problem if there is one (or even plans to come up with a plan).

Both of those are statutory mandates on The Department of Fish & Wildlife.  What we really need to do is figure out how to get them to do their job as none of us has the ability or power do do it without them.

The same could be said for mule deer, moose, caribou (up until they went bye bye) and probably other things.

Let me guess.WE WONT ACCEPT WHAT THEY SAY UNLESS WE SEE ALL THE DATA AND EVIDENCE THAT BROUGHT THEM TO THIS CONCLUSION.

Sounds familiar. 

I can see with my own eyes that the calf numbers are very low this year,To anyone that states other wise it would be great to show this in some way to us here on HW or the Dept. as Karl Blanchard stated he was doing.

[Karl Blanchard]

 I personally did not notice a marked decrease in calves during my winter recreating around the valley.  They even locked a few access gates I normally use due to heavy elk use.  I'm still spit balling that a lot of bulls didn't get counted and or a lot of elk in general didnt get counted.  If they did their surveys before about mid February I can promise they missed a lot because there we bull groups WAY high until that snow started flying. 

[Oh Mah]

  please keep us updated on this quest.

The reason for the calf topic is because the count at the feed station.I spoke to the volunteers up there a few times this year and all of them have the same thoughts and concerns.THE CALF NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN ANY YEAR THEY CAN REMEMBER.Bulls come down for the feed and some don't i get that but cows with calves generally do and i would think their calf numbers are pretty accurate.Maybe i'm wrong. 

[Shawn Ryan]

You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.

[BULLBLASTER]

You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.

He’s a closet elk lover!

[Shawn Ryan]

You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.

He’s a closet elk lover!

So, you're saying this thread is one of those new-fangled reveal parties?!

[JimmyHoffa]

Facts are open to interpretation depending on a number of factors including personal experience.

Do I tend to believe wdfw biologists..not so much anymore. I've known a few over the years and even the best will admit that data is often drivin by politics and rough estimates of field surveys.

So to say the "facts" presented by biologists hold more weight than the ,"facts" I have generated by 30 years of boots on the ground is absolutely your right, it just doesn't make it right.

I know what I see, I know what my camera's see, thus I generate my own opinion based on the facts I know to be true.

In the past, the biologists always referred to themselves as biologists.  The new ones I talk to don't like that term.  They want to be called ecologists.  The bios of the past seemed to always include hunters as another aspect to being in the woods--how they affect animals.  The new ones think of hunters (and humans) basically as some kind of aliens trying to mess up the natural world.    

[Mr Mykiss]

Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!

Read em and weep:

Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag

20 points  2.43%
15 points  1.38%
10 points  0.6%
5   points  0.15%

That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.

Have a nice day.
 

Where did you get those odds?  I'm not arguing as they sound about what I expected but I thought only GoHunt was actually calculating the true odds in WA and they haven't released theirs yet.

Last year’s application numbers by point total and this year’s permit numbers.