The real culprit of Elk decline

[Mudman]

Bob33 that's an epic answer.  Atvs, hikers and horse are the real problem though.

[SuperX]

I wonder how much of this is shed hunters off the trails and walking the calving grounds (with or without dogs) in spring?  It seems obvious that elk can avoid trails where humans hike, and the state can close trails through calving grounds to protect them during that vulnerable time, so it has to be off-trail hiking.  The only user groups I know that do enough off trail travel to affect elk numbers are hunters and shed hunters.

This is a heavily-hiked area at all times of the year. Everyone wants to hike around the Divide. Spring brings incredible wild flowers and mushrooms, breathtaking views.  Vail is only a couple of hours from Denver. It's way more than hunters and shed hunters.

In this case, for sure.  We're talking about an area where the resort also contributes to a concentration effect of human activity year round.  I meant it more broadly about shed hunting.  That said, I never new back-country skiing was such a big thing, I would have thought snowmobiles would be the culprit. 

The real surprise was how sensitive they were to being interfered with.  It would be so easy to bump a cow with a new calf twice (in and out) per trip per party.  10 interruptions would be very easy to see.  Wolves add to it, but we already knew that.  This study really highlights the fragility of the system, and the need to protect the calving areas.

[Platensek-po]

Sorry.  Its still a bunch of liberal conservation SEJ environmental garbage.  Anti ATV as well it seems.  They want nobody on the precious land...  Kinda reminds me of our Mazama problems.  Elk can move to another location right?? Or is spring time only have 1 area they can exist in?  What about the huge decline in mule deer?  Wheres that study?  Maybe they cant find em to harrass the fawns, lol.  Development of valleys and predators, the real problem.  Don't the elk want to migrate to lower valleys for winter feeding grounds?  Ya know the ones that have their office and Prius at?  Using this crap to further the agenda of conservation is disgusting.  I see RCKYMNTELK is supporting this right?   

Read the actual letter sent in 2017 that shows the impact on mule deer populations as well. Why do the elk have to leave? Plenty of areas in the US without elk for people to recreate in at that time of year. Seems like it would be easier to limit the use by humans for a short period than to get the elk to move. Am I right in reading you are anti-conservation?? As a hunter that seems like a really dumb position to be in.

[idaho guy]

What makes this professor a quack?? Since we are going to discredit someone’s work I would like to see proof that his study is flawed in the scientific method or purposefully skewed. Otherwise you are making assumptions about someone based on the fact that you don’t like their objective findings because it doesn’t fit the narrative that predators are the cause of all wildlife woes. Humans are the number 1 reason for all wildlife declines in the last 2 hundred years.

Humans are the number 1 reason? interesting in 1900 they estimated 500,000 whitetails in the US now they estimate 19 million. Most of this due to the north American wildlife model which has been mostly funded by HUMANS called hunters. I do agree humans I call Greenie liberals have devastated  wildlife in some areas with their pro predator and anti logging agenda 

[JimmyHoffa]

The elk that have been introduced in places like Pennsylvania and Kentucky have been doing well despite all the humans in the area.

[pianoman9701]

The elk that have been introduced in places like Pennsylvania and Kentucky have been doing well despite all the humans in the area.

They will never reach the kind of numbers and herd sizes of CO elk, certainly due to the fact that human population is so dense in the eastern states. This is a study on human impact in the CO Rockies. I'm surprised that with so many who cherish our elk resource that this study is being refuted out of hand with no evidence presented to the contrary. Science is one of the reasons we have healthy ungulate herds nationwide. Where we don't, it becomes obvious that science hasn't been aptly applied, such as in the GYA, Lolo, and NE WA, where predator impact was not adequately studied before introducing additional predators. In this case, we see that an agenda was pursued without an interest in true science. So, I can understand the mistrust. But throwing the baby out and not believing any scientific study without scientific refute is foolhardy, IMHO.

[Mudman]

Its not the science/study.  Its the manipulation and presentation, action from its application.  Giant ski lodges, lifts.  A recreation area.  Rapid development in the valleys.  Etc.  And their solution is lets kick all the redneck hunters, atvs and wandering hikers out of the mnts so we can help elk which are being killed.  Yet predators and loss of winter feed grounds are likely much more responsible for decline.  Study doesn't consider elk might have just left the area to better areas?   I say they ask congress to set it aside as a "Wilderness" area.  Solved.  Oh but that would shut down their precious ski lodges and trees to hug as well.  $$ lost.   

[frazierw]

Washington has more hunters per elk than any other western state, and its more than double.  Washington has 1.7 hunters per elk, while the next closest western state has .7, that is very telling in itself.

[Stein]

Washington has more hunters per elk than any other western state, and its more than double.  Washington has 1.7 hunters per elk, while the next closest western state has .7, that is very telling in itself.

That and our seasons are among the shortest, if not the shortest.  There is no doubt our elk are pressured more on average.

[Platensek-po]

Its not the science/study.  Its the manipulation and presentation, action from its application.  Giant ski lodges, lifts.  A recreation area.  Rapid development in the valleys.  Etc.  And their solution is lets kick all the redneck hunters, atvs and wandering hikers out of the mnts so we can help elk which are being killed.  Yet predators and loss of winter feed grounds are likely much more responsible for decline.  Study doesn't consider elk might have just left the area to better areas?   I say they ask congress to set it aside as a "Wilderness" area.  Solved.  Oh but that would shut down their precious ski lodges and trees to hug as well.  $$ lost.   

Literally the letter is asking to stop building all that stuff and asking to maintain expand and enforce wilderness areas in that location.

Yes humans are the number one reason for wildlife problems. We have tons of buffalo now right? Elk vanished from most of their historic range due to wolves right? Even the wolf problem now is caused directly by humans. The fact we have sooo many white tails is actually a problem not an example of great conservation. I’m not blaming hunters I am blaming us as a species. We have systematically destroyed our environment and caused tons of damage to wildlife populations. 340million people in the country and climbing but that is not going to have an effect on wildlife? That’s just ignoring basic biology and ecology. Like elementary school level stuff.

[pianoman9701]

Washington has more hunters per elk than any other western state, and its more than double.  Washington has 1.7 hunters per elk, while the next closest western state has .7, that is very telling in itself.

Telling, how so? Any comparison between WA and CO elk populations and the effects of human-elk interaction are likely invalid. The sheer numbers of elk in CO, the largest population in the country, and the difference in human alpine populations/recreation there makes an accurate comparison impossible.

I don't see this study as having any impact on elk management in WA, at all. If you recreate in CO, maybe you have a dog in this fight. Otherwise, you're just getting upset about something that's not going to affect you.  Good discussion. I've had my say. Have a nice day.

[Bob33]

Washington has more hunters per elk than any other western state, and its more than double.  Washington has 1.7 hunters per elk, while the next closest western state has .7, that is very telling in itself.

Telling, how so? Any comparison between WA and CO elk populations and the effects of human-elk interaction are likely invalid. The sheer numbers of elk in CO, the largest population in the country, and the difference in human alpine populations/recreation there makes an accurate comparison impossible.

I don't see this study as having any impact on elk management in WA, at all. If you recreate in CO, maybe you have a dog in this fight. Otherwise, you're just getting upset about something that's not going to affect you.  Good discussion. I've had my say. Have a nice day.

On the limited basis of elk impact I believe that’s true for the most part. A bigger issue is how hunters and non-hunters interact. The percentage of our population that hunts is declining and is close to half of what it was 30 years ago. The number of mountain bikers will soon exceed the number of hunters in the United States. If hunters and non-hunters cannot find a way to effectively work together on common objectives, both groups will suffer although hunters will suffer more.

[Mudman]

Its not the science/study.  Its the manipulation and presentation, action from its application.  Giant ski lodges, lifts.  A recreation area.  Rapid development in the valleys.  Etc.  And their solution is lets kick all the redneck hunters, atvs and wandering hikers out of the mnts so we can help elk which are being killed.  Yet predators and loss of winter feed grounds are likely much more responsible for decline.  Study doesn't consider elk might have just left the area to better areas?   I say they ask congress to set it aside as a "Wilderness" area.  Solved.  Oh but that would shut down their precious ski lodges and trees to hug as well.  $$ lost.   

Literally the letter is asking to stop building all that stuff and asking to maintain expand and enforce wilderness areas in that location.

Yes hum :tup:are the number one reason for wildlife problems. We have tons of buffalo now right? Elk vanished from most of their historic range due to wolves right? Even the wolf problem now is caused directly by humans. The fact we have sooo many white tails is actually a problem not an example of great conservation. I’m not blaming hunters I am blaming us as a species. We have systematically destroyed our environment and caused tons of damage to wildlife populations. 340million people in the country and climbing but that is not going to have an effect on wildlife? That’s just ignoring basic biology and ecology. Like elementary school level stuff.

Now this I can agree with ya on 99%! But, this will continue.  Only one answer to this problem, our extinction.  Ol Mother Earth will claim its bounty soon enough and rid itself of the human rats, mostly.   She has done it many times over the years.  If we dont do it to our selves first.   Colorado has plenty of elk, they dont need to whine because 1 herd has moved to greener safer pastures...

[idaho guy]

Its not the science/study.  Its the manipulation and presentation, action from its application.  Giant ski lodges, lifts.  A recreation area.  Rapid development in the valleys.  Etc.  And their solution is lets kick all the redneck hunters, atvs and wandering hikers out of the mnts so we can help elk which are being killed.  Yet predators and loss of winter feed grounds are likely much more responsible for decline.  Study doesn't consider elk might have just left the area to better areas?   I say they ask congress to set it aside as a "Wilderness" area.  Solved.  Oh but that would shut down their precious ski lodges and trees to hug as well.  $$ lost.   

Literally the letter is asking to stop building all that stuff and asking to maintain expand and enforce wilderness areas in that location.

Yes humans are the number one reason for wildlife problems. We have tons of buffalo now right? Elk vanished from most of their historic range due to wolves right? Even the wolf problem now is caused directly by humans. The fact we have sooo many white tails is actually a problem not an example of great conservation. I’m not blaming hunters I am blaming us as a species. We have systematically destroyed our environment and caused tons of damage to wildlife populations. 340million people in the country and climbing but that is not going to have an effect on wildlife? That’s just ignoring basic biology and ecology. Like elementary school level stuff.

   

In 1900 they estimated 500 to 1000 elk in Colorado probably 41000 in the united states total. Now Colorado alone has 280000 elk. they have hunting seasons in Pa and Kentucky where elk were once extinct and now Missouri is going to have an elk season. Humans called hunters have helped restore all wildlife not just whitetails. The north American wildlife model has worked wonderfully for 100 years but junk science and biased bios are doing there best to destroy it. Promoting predators and virtually eliminating logging have been the  most detrimental thus far. I don't like articles or studies like this because they take the general publics attention off the important things we can worry about when it comes to wildlife. We have way bigger fish to fry then this and its a  distraction from the important things we should do. is there too many people now? I don't know but I agree human population growth definitely isn't helping, what do you propose we do about it? I guess if we are that worried about too many people we can all put a gun to our own heads otherwise we should focus on what has worked for 100 years. If you start kicking people out of winter range you get rid of the predator hunters too. Every year I lion hunt winter range because that Is where the game is and that is where the predators are. Every lion we take out probably saves 52 deer a year. Do we disturb wildlife up there with dogs and machines? We try not too but I am sure we can be irritating sometimes I am not killing 52 deer or elk a year by being out there. Most of this stuff is designed to keep people out of the woods in my opinion but at least they are focusing on hikers and mountain bikers for once       

[Mudman]

 :yeah:Pretty much sums it up.  Google population growth chart through 2050.  The #'s which are not sustainable may shed light on the Liberal Socialist thirst for power and global 1 world type government.  I figure there will absolutely be no wildlife by then as we will all poach em to eat!