High priced vs low/mid ranged optics

[Dadofive]

The vortex customer service post got me thinking about my recent experience during this hunt season. I have a pair of diamondback 10x42 binos and had an opportunity to use a $1500 set of vortex on this hunt. There was so little variation between the two. They were both used at all hours and all light conditions and I am just not convinced about buying high dollar binos. If you are spotting all day, maybe but who spots all day with 10x? I hear the arguments of "buy once, cry once" but these same people have 10 sets they have bought once. I'm convinced they just have more money than the rest and say that if you are serious then you need to spend the money. I'm the same on scopes. I have a $200 scope on a $600 rifle that can shoot accurately out to anything I feel ethical about shooting for (600 yards is not very ethical imo. I bow hunt too and can't bring myself to shoot something out that far. That's not really hunting but just shooting). I'm not counting points with my rifle scope (only aim at what I'm going to shoot) so as long as it holds zero (most of us never adjust our scope off the range anyway), why the thousands in glass? I just don't get it. I've got a family of 7 to feed and I can think of lots of ways to spend my $$$ rather than on good marketing skills.

[Skyvalhunter]

Because there is a quality difference. I have a pair of Swarovski !0 X 42 and pair of 15 power Vortex. The Swarovski's out do them Vortex hands down. If you are glassing for long periods your eyes don't get tired with good glass. But with that being said there is  just as many guys that are going to speak up and dispute this. I think of it the same as with cameras, you can buy cheap and be satisfied or upgrade and be happy you did and the quality will show out.

[Bushcraft]

There is an exponential diminishing return on investment when it comes to glass.  The value comes into play depending upon how you're going to use it and how often.

That said, and I'll probably catch some flak for this...and please don't take offense to this, but you were comparing a Vortex to a Vortex.  The very best way to discern the difference in the quality of optical resolution is to set them up side-by-side on rock solid mounts and use them at all hours of the day in different lighting conditions.  The other aspects are ergonomics and how well the guts will hold up over time.  That's where they are going to fail.  Still another comes down to how good your eyes are compared to someone with absolutely perfect vision.

And yes, some people live behind their bino's all day. 

[Dadofive]

I understand I was comparing vortex to vortex but that was what was in the field at that time. I've looked at Swarovski in the store but fluorescent lighting is not the best comparison. I also understand that people live behind glass and understand that people can spend their money how they like. For me, I'm just not sold on high end high dollar optics. Sure they might be better but $1000 better? I haven't seen it 😊

[Moe the Sleaze]

I agree with Dad. Plenty of perfectly fine low and mid-price optics out there. If I had to pick a number, I'd say that spending more than $400 is overkill.

[Tinmaniac]

Buy high end used glass.The cheap stuff will be worth nothing down the road.My Swaros are selling used almost what I paid new and they are 20 years old.After 20 years I am still impressed every time I use them.

[pianoman9701]

I understand I was comparing vortex to vortex but that was what was in the field at that time. I've looked at Swarovski in the store but fluorescent lighting is not the best comparison. I also understand that people live behind glass and understand that people can spend their money how they like. For me, I'm just not sold on high end high dollar optics. Sure they might be better but $1000 better? I haven't seen it 😊

If you're not glassing a lot, you probably needn't spend a month's pay on glass. My Talon HDs do perform well in low-light conditions and, I think, they allow you to see critters better than non-HD glass in low light. Also, if you're hunting the thick stuff on the wet side, glassing isn't always a thing. But if you are spending more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time looking through bino's or a spotting scope, the better glass will make a marked difference.

[huntnphool]

If you are spotting all day, maybe but who spots all day with 10x?

 

[rainshadow1]

Family of 9 here... I feel ya!

I've downgraded my purchases as I've upgraded the family... switched from a Leupold loyal, to the best buy for quality I could find.

I seem to have gravitated towards and have been very happy with Nikon. (But I do tend to go Monarch with my stuff and ProStaff with my kids' stuff!)

Honestly, ProStaff is solid quality stuff. Brighter than buckmaster or lots of other $150 scopes and $200 binos. Monarch is more vivid, and a tiny bit brighter, but the difference is negligible. (At least that's what I tell my kids!)

I still have lots of Leupys, a few Vortex, Burris, etc... and I'll buy a bargain on top quality any day. But I think the competition in optics has been wonderful for us <$400 guys!

Expensive glass is amazing.... but is it "worth" it? We have lots to spend money on. For me, now... no. 

[Bob33]

One of the benefits of using alpha glass in binoculars is never again wondering “What did I miss?” or asking yourself “If I had a pair of alpha glass binoculars would I have seen more animals or been able to better tell if it that deer was legal”? The doubts can lead to buying slightly more expensive binoculars, time and time again and again until you finally buy a pair that you live with for good along with a drawer full of ones you’ll never use again. I’ve got the T-shirts to prove that happens.

The differences between $200-$500 binoculars and $2000 binoculars are usually quite small and subtle, and without a doubt a $500 binocular is far better than no binocular. If you can’t afford or justify spending a couple thousand dollars on binoculars that’s a perfectly acceptable decision.

I also believe your eyes are usually the best decision maker for what is best for you. I have a hunting partner who hunts with $200 binos, sees about as many animals as I do, and swears he likes them better that Swarovskis.

[Magnum_Willys]

Shopping is a 365 day hobby and getting great gear is part of the sport for some.  But will you shoot more game ? With practice, yes but if you don't enjoy the gear part spend dollars on gas or more time to hunt and you will be well served. 

[kselkhunter]

I love Swarovski and Zeiss optics, and have them on my rifles.   But I bought those back when I was working for the man making good money.  Now that I have my own business, and every expense saved is profit in the bank to retire earlier....yeah I probably wouldn't buy Swarovski now.   I have a pair of Nikon Monarch binoculars that are actually quite decent for the price.  Much better than my Vortex binoculars.  Are they better than Swarovski?  No of course not.  But good enough for the job that I use them for.


That said:  if I ever draw that elusive bighorn sheep or mountain goat tag....I'll be inviting friends along that have a Swarovski spotting scope....as my aging eyes would much rather spend all day looking through one of those with that tag on the line.   :-)

[Hoythunter]

I’m my opinion, the best way to summarize glass is simply you get what you pay for.  I can’t come up with a better description having owned 6-7 pairs of mid-range  glass over the years until I finally stepped up.  The Swaro’s I own now are an essential part of my setup as I rely on the internal range-finder to dial in my rifle turret, sight pin, etc.

[BeerBugler]

Good gear is good gear. Can you get by without it? Yes. Can you kill big critters without it? Yes. Is hunting much more enjoyable with good gear? Yes. Buy what you can afford. On a side note, using a good tripod and a great pan head will make a bigger difference in glassing than $600 vs $1600 binos.

[lewy]

Someone with the opinion that low/middle end glass is comparable to high end glass is someone who’s opinion is not worth considering. That being said, we all have different budgets and glassing abilities so get what works for you. I’ve said before and will say again, put whatever you run on a tripod and that will improve your glassing success immensely 

[jackelope]

I'm TOTALLY sure there's a notable difference in optical quality between alpha glass and the Vortex(for example) that I use. I just use pretty good stuff. Not the best, good enough for me. I think it comes down to how OCD are you .
My Vortex 15's have a sort of noticeable, faint out of focus ring around the outer perimeter of the field of view. It's a lower quality optic thing and I'm aware of it, but it doesn't bother me. I just move the bino's a little if I need to be totally focused. I can see @Bushcraft cringing and grinding his teeth as he reads this
I bought the Vortex Vulture 15's after reading Robby Denning's great review of them on the Rokslide website. He focused on bang for the buck, and that's where I'm at. I have a pair of Maven C1's for the same reason. Ryan gave those bino's a really nice review there as well.

[robodad]

What ever happened to Zen-Ray ? I thought those were damn good binos and still very reasonable !!

[Rainier10]

I just upgraded this month from Cabela's Euro 10x42's to Swaro EL 10x42's. I had paid $700 for the Euros 8 years ago in the cabela's bargain cave and $2,700 for the swaros.  I did get 10% of the swaros and had a bunch of cabelas points on my credit card so out of pocket they were $1,750.

Right out of the box I adjusted them to my eyes and set the diopter focus, left eye/right eye.  The sweet thing about swaro's is once it is set you lock it and it won't come out of adjustment.  Big plus.

They felt great in my hands compared to the Euros.

Then I started glassing out my back door with both of them. First glance, no big difference.  Maybe a little clearer all the way to the edges of the swaro's but I wasn't impressed.   Waited an hour and checked again.  Maybe a little more difference.  Another hour and the gap was starting to widen.  20 minutes after sun set and the difference was pretty clear.  The swaros were much brighter and clearer.

Two weeks ago was my first hunt with the swaros.  They performed well and I noticed less eye strain with extended periods of glassing.  I used them again last weekend and I am really starting to like them.  I think over the next 10-15 years I will continue to appreciate them more and be happy that I made the investment.

[jackelope]

They performed well and I noticed less eye strain with extended periods of glassing. 

You can't sit still for more than 11 minutes at a time.

[Magnum_Willys]

We all have our budgets - I just bought a slik III tripod when I really wanted and Outdoorsman compact but $79 vs $500+     Of course now Im running a $2k spotter on a $79 tripod which is not so smart either.  heh 

[jackelope]

We all have our budgets - I just bought a slik III tripod when I really wanted and Outdoorsman compact but $79 vs $500+     Of course now Im running a $2k spotter on a $79 tripod which is not so smart either.  heh 

My ratio is a little better. $900 spotter on a $100 tripod

I'll probably have a hard time ever spending $2000+ on any hunting optics. Different strokes for different folks.

[jrebel]

I am not independently wealthy and work for every dollar I earn.  I have purchased many mid range bino's over the years and they have always worked.  I know own an older pair of Swarovski SLC's and will never look back.  I paid $800 for the bino's and a Swar range finder.....killer deal.  I traded the range finder for a Browning Gold 3 1/2 12 gauge shotgun (approx value new $1000).   Needless to say...and my point....is there are deals to be had if you are patient and you have the cash when they do come up.  Save your money and constantly keep your ears to the ground and you will find nice glass for a very affordable price. 

[jrebel]

Here you go for those who don't believe me. 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/spo/d/seattle-swarovski-binoculars-habicht/6998403869.html

Make a reasonable offer or trade offer and see where it goes.  Someone may get a nice pair for 600-650? 

[Tinmaniac]

 :yeah:My son bought a pair of 8x30 last year for $500.They were literally brand new with all factory paperwork,box and even the gold hawk that came with all Swaros of the era.

[Bushcraft]

I'm TOTALLY sure there's a notable difference in optical quality between alpha glass and the Vortex(for example) that I use. I just use pretty good stuff. Not the best, good enough for me. I think it comes down to how OCD are you .
My Vortex 15's have a sort of noticeable, faint out of focus ring around the outer perimeter of the field of view. It's a lower quality optic thing and I'm aware of it, but it doesn't bother me. I just move the bino's a little if I need to be totally focused. I can see @Bushcraft cringing and grinding his teeth as he reads this
I bought the Vortex Vulture 15's after reading Robby Denning's great review of them on the Rokslide website. He focused on bang for the buck, and that's where I'm at. I have a pair of Maven C1's for the same reason. Ryan gave those bino's a really nice review there as well.

Haha!

[Bushcraft]

Optical needs - and the quality or lack thereof, are directly related to the nature of one's hunt.

There is a world of difference between hunting Blacktails in the jungles of the Olympic Peninsula and trying to find and age a Stone sheep in vast expanses of norther B.C.

You don't need much in the former, but you darn well better show up with top of the line optics in the latter.

Heck, it turns out quality glass matters a lot when you're trying to make sure a sheep is legal in the Yakima Canyon as the light is fading.

[jackelope]

Heck, it turns out quality glass matters a lot when you're trying to make sure a sheep is legal in the Yakima Canyon as the light is fading.

You should post some pics. I think you maximized your opportunity there.

[Camo]

I'll chime in on this since I have some recent experience that may add a constructive view. Sorry if it's long winded. I have been running Zeiss glass (top models of that brand at the time) that I bought new roughly 12+/- years ago, depending on piece. So technology and coatings are outdated relative to today. As I am getting prepped for Coues deer, I decided I wanted a pair of 15x nocs. I purchased a set of 15x Kaibabs HD(previous version wanted wider FOV)and a set of 15x Meoptas(current version B1.1). I have a clearcut about 850 yards from the main street I live off. When both bins were mounted on tripods and I was able to look through both at the same exact image, I really struggled to see a significant difference. Light gathering was really close right up to dark, but the thing I noticed is that it seemed like I ran out of focus? Fast forward a few weeks, spent a weekend on the Quilomene scouting for my dads tag. Glassing out to distances of 1200yds to a mile and more is where I noticed a significant breakdown. The further out, the more apparent the differences became. At this point the Meoptas are definitely outperforming the Kaibabs but still something is missing. So I break out my "old, outdated" spotter and set it to 15x. There it is, the focus and clarity I was looking for. Technically speaking, a spotter vs. bins is not near as "efficient" but I had my clarity back. Lastly, I mounted my 10x Zeiss to the tripod and even at the lower power, the resolution still exceeded both pairs of 15's at distance.

Please understand this is subjective to my eyes which have noticeably degraded the last few years.  Knowing that, I felt like "my eyes" probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference anymore between 'Alpha" glass and some of the really good mid range products currently available. I took the opportunity to reach out to Cody at GoHunt and he said a couple of things that were of interest. Maybe he is a good enough salesman that, like a fortune teller (no disrespect) can take enough hints from a conversation to develop a general outline and direct a pitch? Regardless, he said two things that resonated with me. First was the older we get as our eyes degrade is when the optical qualities actually begin to make a bigger difference. In full disclosure, I'm sure he is not an Optometrist, and I definitely am not. Secondly, was that at 200 yards the differences between glass goes mostly undetectable. At distance is where it becomes significantly noticeable, and the further out the more noticeable it becomes. This was my experience.

My take-away is that the glass required is based more on the specific type of hunting you are trying to do. At 1000 yards a lot of glass will show you points on an elk. You will also see the mule deer but probably not that third point? I am personally looking for something I can spot tines on a Coues at 1000 yards in the brush. Which is why I just sold the Kaibabs that I bought three months ago, and will have my 2 month old Meoptas for sale as soon as my dads hunt is over, in the hopes that the SLC's are what I am looking for. I hope this helps someone with their future decision. This was information that was important to me that I struggled to find other than the typical "buy once, cry once cliché". 

[HntnFsh]

What ever happened to Zen-Ray ? I thought those were damn good binos and still very reasonable !!

They were a great deal for good glass. Unfortunately they went out of business. That's why when I was recently looking at binos I avoided Maven, Tract, and a few others. Great glass with no track record.

[Rainier10]

They performed well and I noticed less eye strain with extended periods of glassing. 

You can't sit still for more than 11 minutes at a time.

That’s so true but at the ten minute mark there is no eye strain.

[wags]

The vortex customer service post got me thinking about my recent experience during this hunt season. I have a pair of diamondback 10x42 binos and had an opportunity to use a $1500 set of vortex on this hunt. There was so little variation between the two. They were both used at all hours and all light conditions and I am just not convinced about buying high dollar binos. If you are spotting all day, maybe but who spots all day with 10x?

Me. I just spent ten days glassing ALL day for ten straight days using a pair of 10x Zeiss classics. There are a couple of good reasons for high end binos other than sight clarity, the main one being eye fatigue (that will be followed by bad headaches). I've had hunters (clients) who have attempted to use relatively good mid-range binos like Nikons while glassing all day; many times they end up with headaches in the evening. I actually would recommend Nikons, but not for use hours on end.     

[jeffro]

All of my standard hunting gear says Leupold on it somewhere.
Mainly for their customer service, and being somewhat local.
All equipment purchased used at a reasonable price, binos, spotter, range finder, scopes
I have only  had to send one scope in for service, and had to order turrets on another.
Service and communication was spectacular on both instances.

I do have two rifles with Nikons mounted atop.
A .308 Remington with the Prostaff BDC reticle, this thing is spot on to 500yds
And a rifled slug shotgun with a Slugmaster BDC, hits 8” plates at 225 all day
Very impressed with these, especially at the price point.

[boneaddict]

All my scopes say Leupold on them. The fact they are all from the 70s probably says something. LOL

[medic090]

As so many have said before, I'm going to catch flack for this but... here's my $.02. I hunt blacktail on public land, in the wet west side of the state. I do glass clear cuts all day with my 10x42 Nikon Monarch 3 I had a pair of Leopolds (stolen) and a pair of "fancy" bushnells (backup pair). I can use my nikons all day and my eyes don't get tired. Here is the catch, I sometimes find myself with too powerful of glass. I am not going to glass a clear cut from half a mile away because while hunting public land back when I was growing up my dad would use a spotting scope and see blacktail a ways out, every time we show up it was long gone. Either spooked up by others or wandered off by the time we got the (at that time paper) map out and found out how to get there. I spend all my time on my few honey holes where I see plenty of sign, or know the bucks are there. I guess my point is YOU have to decide what you need, the only way to do that is buy the nicest glass you can reasonably afford, and then adjust a few years down the road when you are settled into a hunting style that works for you. I also don't need crazy high powered glass because most of the time I'm 30' up a tree (yes in rifle season) cause that's what puts meat in the freezer for me. Also I can't tell you how many times I have glassed an area that the younger me didn't think I needed glass for and just seen a bedded down deer twitch. Anyway I hope that provides a different prospective. Good Luck!

[Windwalker]

Also consider moving the bar lower by registering at sites like https://www.expertvoice.com or digging deeper for available discounts.
Check Black Friday sales etc, and reconditioned optics are another source for lower prices. https://aaoptics.com/
 
I've found that most sites give deep discounts (sometimes around 40%) using LE/MIL/First Responder credentials.
I won't disclose which outfit, but for example a scope that retails for $2,599.99 is $1,429.99. Or instead of $714.99 a more palatable $393.24.
A $400 scope AFTER the discount is a good quality scope.
Optics is one of the few items where the price usually reflects higher quality.
And don't be afraid to ask for clearance models. I've gotten some real eye opener discounts by just asking.

[Rainier10]

I just upgraded this month from Cabela's Euro 10x42's to Swaro EL 10x42's. I had paid $700 for the Euros 8 years ago in the cabela's bargain cave and $2,700 for the swaros.  I did get 10% of the swaros and had a bunch of cabelas points on my credit card so out of pocket they were $1,750.

Right out of the box I adjusted them to my eyes and set the diopter focus, left eye/right eye.  The sweet thing about swaro's is once it is set you lock it and it won't come out of adjustment.  Big plus.

They felt great in my hands compared to the Euros.

Then I started glassing out my back door with both of them. First glance, no big difference.  Maybe a little clearer all the way to the edges of the swaro's but I wasn't impressed.   Waited an hour and checked again.  Maybe a little more difference.  Another hour and the gap was starting to widen.  20 minutes after sun set and the difference was pretty clear.  The swaros were much brighter and clearer.

Two weeks ago was my first hunt with the swaros.  They performed well and I noticed less eye strain with extended periods of glassing.  I used them again last weekend and I am really starting to like them.  I think over the next 10-15 years I will continue to appreciate them more and be happy that I made the investment.

Update one month and a few hunts in.  I am really starting to like the Swaro EL's.  I love the locking diopter adjustment wheel. I haven't had to adjust it because it can't get bumped out of focus.  Every time I pull them up they are crystal clear after I adjust the main focus wheel to the distance I am viewing.

Low light they are absolutely amazing.  The sharpness and clarity is crazy.  You can really get a good look at antlers and every little detail.

Crazy expensive but I think they are worth the money.

I would highly suggest picking a set up either new or off of the classifieds here at the end of the season as they come available.

[bobcat]

If I spent $2700 on binoculars I'd have to quit hunting for the next four years. 

I always thought really decent binoculars could be had for around $400, and the really nice, premium binoculars a little over $1000. Wow. I'm using Bushnell's right now, along with a $100 Kowa 6x30 when I don't need more magnification.

Think I'll stick with what I've got for now. Just keeping gas in the truck is expensive enough.

[KFhunter]

I have a slight astigmatism, if I set the diopters with contacts out its like zero and -four, with contacts in they're pretty much set to zero and zero.

[Magnum_Willys]

I do notice the better the optics the more noticeable the shake.  I.e. fuzzy ones don't shake at all.  hehe