(updated 12/7 ! ) Totals Posted - Historic Methow valley winter deer survey

[jagermiester]

Another interesting number to look at would be the number of people hunting in the Methow Valley. I have stopped hunting and fishing in areas due to the decline in game (birds and ungulate's). I have never hunted the Methow but it sounds like people are really holding on to their traditions of hunting in that area. Has there been a decline? At what point do people just stop taking animals out of a heard that is failing regardless of what the game dept. allows. Move on to better hunting grounds as man has done forever. Are we or are we not the #1 conservation group in this country.

[stlusn30-06]

This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read about deer hunting.

 Fitkin said. “Our harvest pressure stays pretty consistent, but if there are less bucks on the landscape overall, hunters probably are going to take a higher percentage.”

If I understand that correctly is he saying if there are two bucks on the mountain and one gets killed 50% of the herd was taken?

He's saying that if pressure (meaning number of hunters stays the same), but buck numbers are lower (year over year), a larger percentage of the buck population gets harvested. Ex. There is a total of 100 bucks and 100 hunters one year. hunters harvest 20 bucks. 20% of the buck pop got harvested. In year two there are 100 hunters and 90 bucks. 20 bucks get harvested again. 22% of the buck pop. got harvested. Equals hunters taking a higher percentage.

Seems to be making the assumption that hunter success rates will remain the same, or only slightly decrease with the buck pop. drop. Not sure how that holds up after enough of them are gone.

 

[Humptulips]

Another interesting number to look at would be the number of people hunting in the Methow Valley. I have stopped hunting and fishing in areas due to the decline in game (birds and ungulate's). I have never hunted the Methow but it sounds like people are really holding on to their traditions of hunting in that area. Has there been a decline? At what point do people just stop taking animals out of a heard that is failing regardless of what the game dept. allows. Move on to better hunting grounds as man has done forever. Are we or are we not the #1 conservation group in this country.

Move on to better hunting grounds in WA? Where would that be?

[no.cen.wa]

 There are many variables that have put the Methow herd in jeopardy, days the mule deer are hunted is one for  sure. In the 60's-80's there wasn't a campsite open form Beavercreek to the summit of Loop Loop pass, and the season was 5 weeks long, sometimes running into Veterans Day. They are mostly empty after the first weekend now, not nearly as many hunters at all.
I guess we could all stop hunting and let the predators control the herd, till they killed them all, and like I said once before, we could just go to a zoo if we wanted to see a mule deer.
As many of us saw the story of the island in Alaska that had too many deer, so, wolves were introduced and within 3 years nearly every deer was gone, the wolves had started killing themselves, the wolves were removed and the deer rebounded.
The WDFW needs to help with the Methow herd, doing nothing to help has gotten us to where we are, they were silent when trapping and hunting with dogs was stopped, or rolled way back, they should have known that would explode the predator population, they said nothing with the introduction of wolves, they should have known that would hurt the herd,,, and now the introduction of grizzlies,,,,
They don't care!
 
John G

[Igor]

They don't care!
 
John G

That is, in fact, the answer !!

[bigmacc]

There are many variables that have put the Methow herd in jeopardy, days the mule deer are hunted is one for  sure. In the 60's-80's there wasn't a campsite open form Beavercreek to the summit of Loop Loop pass, and the season was 5 weeks long, sometimes running into Veterans Day. They are mostly empty after the first weekend now, not nearly as many hunters at all.
I guess we could all stop hunting and let the predators control the herd, till they killed them all, and like I said once before, we could just go to a zoo if we wanted to see a mule deer.
As many of us saw the story of the island in Alaska that had too many deer, so, wolves were introduced and within 3 years nearly every deer was gone, the wolves had started killing themselves, the wolves were removed and the deer rebounded.
The WDFW needs to help with the Methow herd, doing nothing to help has gotten us to where we are, they were silent when trapping and hunting with dogs was stopped, or rolled way back, they should have known that would explode the predator population, they said nothing with the introduction of wolves, they should have known that would hurt the herd,,, and now the introduction of grizzlies,,,,
They don't care!
 
John G

 ......All it takes is to look at the Bio,s "Bio", his specialtys are carnivors, where do we think the mule deer herd comes in as importance, like most of us have been saying, that rung is way down the ladder. I know a some folks"locals" that believe that herd is being managed as food for the 4 legged predator population, not for hunters and if anything is done about seasons or cutbacks that effect us as hunters it won't have anything to do about benefiting us or to increase our opportunity, they believe the priority is to make sure the "prey" is available to support the growing numbers of the 4 legged variety..... don't shoot the messenger, just what I,ve heard from more than a handful of folks. I actually hope they are wrong.

[jagermiester]

Another interesting number to look at would be the number of people hunting in the Methow Valley. I have stopped hunting and fishing in areas due to the decline in game (birds and ungulate's). I have never hunted the Methow but it sounds like people are really holding on to their traditions of hunting in that area. Has there been a decline? At what point do people just stop taking animals out of a heard that is failing regardless of what the game dept. allows. Move on to better hunting grounds as man has done forever. Are we or are we not the #1 conservation group in this country.

Move on to better hunting grounds in WA? Where would that be?

 Yeah right 

[sooperfly]

Don't forget to get your vote in, poll closes tonight at 9:30!   

Ok, the second part of this will go a lot quicker.   After the poll closes tonight, I'll show results on the map.  There will be a new map posted with most of the Methow winter range showing broken down into 3 more groups.  You'll just post in the thread what you think the totals of each group is, and in two days I'll show the map with all the totals.  Thanks for participating !   

[sooperfly]

Ok, here ya go, total is 516!   Poll results are in, 20% picked correctly at 501-1000.
(note: the red circles are the 1938 numbers, the blue circles are 1937. We're just guessing the 1938 red #'s )



Now the second part to this - if you'd like to participate just reply with what the totals of #1,2 and 3 are.  Using this example below, I'm guessing there are 195 total rest of the map.

1. 25
2. 50
3. 120

Easy peasy!  Here's the map for the second part:



Hope this made sense ?  I'll leave this blurred out version up for a couple days, and update with the full map on Sunday afternoon!  Thanks to everyone that voted, and I hope you put a guess up for this second part!   

[no.cen.wa]

My Grandfather moved from Wenatchee to Twisp in the 1920's and I remember him telling me when I was hunting with him in the 60's that the herd wasn't always huge, there had been some really bad winters, don't think he mentioned the years but guess he was talking about 1938 for sure!
John G

[CoryTDF]

Am I the only one that cant see the map?

[sooperfly]

Am I the only one that cant see the map?

Ok, I had the picture set to "private", I've now changed it to "public".
Can you refresh the page and see them now?

[bigmacc]

My Grandfather moved from Wenatchee to Twisp in the 1920's and I remember him telling me when I was hunting with him in the 60's that the herd wasn't always huge, there had been some really bad winters, don't think he mentioned the years but guess he was talking about 1938 for sure!
John G

 , Thats kind of what we have deciphered from from some of the old writings on the backs of pictures no.cen.wa, we have some pictures (posted and pulled down) from the 30,s that show a lot of bucks hanging (10-15 depending on the year, including a few real dandy,s) in the pictures along with a lot of snow on the ground, grandma wrote on the backs, "tough going this year", "lots of snow, not many deer", etc., a lot of it is unreadable and dates are hard to read also but some are readable and the ones from the 30,s seem to have a foot - 2 feet of snow in them around the ridgepole. Like I said, I remember dad saying there were a few years where the Department would shut down all shooting of spikes, seems to me I remember him saying they were mostly in the 30,s and 40,s after tough winters

[bigmacc]

Its interesting looking at these"maps and counts" (great idea sooperfly ). Brings up many of my own personal memories of doing counts and hearing the many stories from my dad and grandparents. of their counts and observations going back to 1917.  One of the ones I remember as a kid was going over to count (might have been that flash freeze in the 60,s or another one a few years after ) but there were just handfuls of deer in these areas you have posted, 80-90% of the herd was piled up from the town of Methow to the Columbia, the snow was so deep in the upper valley there were litterly thousands of deer just laying along the south slopes(which were still covered in feet of snow) along the hillsides, some just feet or yards from the pavement heading south towards Pateros. Almost like the time my dad and I went over in the 80,s I believe, stopped and picked up some pellets at the Game Mgrs place and he sent us down to an orchard off the Burma Road(there was 5-6 feet of snow from Twisp,north) and the herd was all around Carleton to about Methow. I think I told the story before, there were hundreds of deer in that little orchard that dang near attacked us when we pulled in , I actually had to climb out of a window of my truck to get in the back where the feed was, we couldn't open a door!

[huntnphool]

 We used to hit Finley every year and count hundreds, and that was in my lifetime. Wolf would hold about the same but didn’t have as easy of access to view, you actually had to hike.

 I’ve got miles upon miles of boot leather in all these spots on that map, it’s a crying shame what it’s turned into.