Quality elk tag numbers

[Stein]

I think landowner tags are a joke and do more damage than good for the average hunter. If anything, compensate the ranchers for opening their properties for depredation hunts. Win for ranchers and sportsmen.

A good idea in theory, but lots of room for abuse there too.  Like all the members of the public that get to do the depredation hunts being friends, extended families, other people the landowners know in a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" kind of deal.  Hey, ill let you do this depredation hunt on my land for such and such in return...  then the general public gets no chance to do said depredation hunts, yet the landowner still gets critters killed, and is compensated by the state on top of it, and probably getting other little kickbacks from people doing the hunting.  Im just speculating though. Or maybe im just talking out of my ass.  But i could see it going more or less like i said.

No, you're right.  In MT, the BMA program allows property owners to run their own reservation system for those that aren't sign-in.  Guess what happens?  They also enroll BMA property that doesn't have any animals, just like in WA.  If the area bio is on the ball, they stay away from junk properties, but other bio's just want numbers of acres enrolled.

I think the properties in WA only get something like $1k a year, so for many it's not worth the hassle, risk or garbage left behind.  Most of the private outfits that compete with BMA or FFTH offerings from the state are easily able to pay more.

[idahohuntr]

I think landowner tags are a joke and do more damage than good for the average hunter. If anything, compensate the ranchers for opening their properties for depredation hunts. Win for ranchers and sportsmen.

A good idea in theory, but lots of room for abuse there too.  Like all the members of the public that get to do the depredation hunts being friends, extended families, other people the landowners know in a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" kind of deal.  Hey, ill let you do this depredation hunt on my land for such and such in return...  then the general public gets no chance to do said depredation hunts, yet the landowner still gets critters killed, and is compensated by the state on top of it, and probably getting other little kickbacks from people doing the hunting.  Im just speculating though. Or maybe im just talking out of my ass.  But i could see it going more or less like i said.

I think you are pretty close to accurate.  I have access to depredation tags in two states and in both cases I basically see plenty of what you describe...and in some cases I think there are significant conflicts of interest with the state officials handing out the depredation tags. 

Last year, Idaho moved a bunch of cow elk draw tags to depredation tags for landowners - in one specific area plenty of hunters wanted those tags, and plenty of hunters were very successful in harvesting elk on private lands (these tags were 15% draw odds, 60-70% harvest success).  Now, those tags are doled out by the state to landowners who get to fill all the tags previously given to the general public in a random draw.  I wrote/called/discussed my objections repeatedly with several state folks - but the local biologist gave me the most hilarious answer...said, hell, we gave your dad 2 of these tags, whats your problem?  I just shook my head.

[trophyhunt]

Didn’t read the entire thread, so I apologize if it’s been said. But in my opinion land owners shouldn’t get paid for damage unless they allow access for hunting by a draw process and if they try to make people pay for access give them no damage money. They don’t own the animals and they should’nt be able to collect money from the state AND be able to charge fees to hunters who help out their situation. Give them an option, not their cake and eat it too.

[dvolmer]

Didn’t read the entire thread, so I apologize if it’s been said. But in my opinion land owners shouldn’t get paid for damage unless they allow access for hunting by a draw process and if they try to make people pay for access give them no damage money. They don’t own the animals and they should’nt be able to collect money from the state AND be able to charge fees to hunters who help out their situation. Give them an option, not their cake and eat it too.

Totally agree!

[Whitenuckles]

Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.

not possible

Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?

[ridgefire]

I agree Trophyhunt.

[dreamingbig]

Muzzleloader Take a Hit and Archery Gets more again,

what does archery get more of?

They don’t.  That comment was uninformed.


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[Bullmoose]

I disagree had open cow season in the GMU I Hunt and we went up in Sept and they were chasing the herds on 4wheelers with some one sitting on the back with a bow, Drove around and had people stop me and ask if I had seen the elk and then they would tear out across the timber, if you look there was not going to be any cow tags for archery and now there is 100 and muzzleloaders get 10 and MF is like 50, So they get more than the rest WFDW needs to give all the weapons the same across the board

[Katmai Guy]

So where there was a general archery season for cows and now archery gets 100 permits that's getting more than last year?  Numbers of permits are based on success  ratios for each weapon type according to past wdfw statements, ie; less permits for higher success weapon types.

[jstone]

I don’t remember seeing 100 cow permits

[jstone]

Never mind I found it

[Pinetar]

A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should).  But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one!  It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl!  They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting.  I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters.  What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs.  the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed!  All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups.  The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!

I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following.  In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2.  In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero.  In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area.  Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state.  We are screwed for sure!  Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this.  Could this be fixed? YES!  Will it be fixed? NO!!!!  It really really wont, and that makes me sad.  Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right!  The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!

WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April

Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls.

I don't agree with your criticism of WDFW in this case.  I think, in general, the tag cuts are appropriate given the decline in numbers.  I'm mostly familiar with the Blues - and there are definitely less elk than several years ago.  Its not a matter of missing them or not counting them at the right time.  I wish tag numbers were higher, but given the shape the elk are in, I'm glad they have cut tags.

I should have clarified that I was referring to the Central WA Ellensburg units.

I do not hunt the Blues or Yakima units but have heard from some that they are hurting, not the case around here. And criticism of WDFW around here is deserved.

[jdb]

Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.

not possible

Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?

i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?

[dreamingbig]

Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.

not possible

Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?

i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?

If you don’t know the Boldt decision you should read up.  A good history lesson.  A very bad day for WA non-native sportspersons.


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[idahohuntr]

A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should).  But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one!  It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl!  They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting.  I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters.  What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs.  the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed!  All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups.  The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!

I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following.  In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2.  In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero.  In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area.  Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state.  We are screwed for sure!  Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this.  Could this be fixed? YES!  Will it be fixed? NO!!!!  It really really wont, and that makes me sad.  Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right!  The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!

WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April

Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls.

I don't agree with your criticism of WDFW in this case.  I think, in general, the tag cuts are appropriate given the decline in numbers.  I'm mostly familiar with the Blues - and there are definitely less elk than several years ago.  Its not a matter of missing them or not counting them at the right time.  I wish tag numbers were higher, but given the shape the elk are in, I'm glad they have cut tags.

I should have clarified that I was referring to the Central WA Ellensburg units.

I do not hunt the Blues or Yakima units but have heard from some that they are hurting, not the case around here. And criticism of WDFW around here is deserved.

Well glad to hear elk are doing well somewhere. I think I recall some discussion years ago about WDFW not getting accurate bull counts in the ellensburg area, by their own admission...And don't get me wrong, I have plenty of criticism for WDFW - just not for the tag cuts in the areas I'm familiar with.