Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause

[Limhangerslayer]

Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less. 

4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  I’m about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesn’t matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

I understand you saw a 6x6 elk being driven out by a guy in shorts and talked to another guy about 24-hour hunting practices. This is hardly empirical evidence that the harvest practices of the tribes have changed in recent years, causing a huge decrease in elk mortality in that area. You go on to say that "...tribal(s) nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state." This is a broad swipe of the brush, as there are many factors contributing to ungulate population declines in different parts of our state, many of them due to mismanagement of resources by non-tribal entities, like state and/or federal agencies.  In almost all of those areas, tribal harvest and the characteristics of that harvest are not a new phenomena. Although I'm open to evidence that shows tribal harvest as a mitigating factor in the decline of ungulate populations, I have seen little so far. To the contrary, many of the tribes in our state are conservation-minded and do their best to maintain healthy ungulate populations, through habitat improvement and predator control. If we are to find solutions to a very clear problem in the Blues (and I see it's a big problem), we'd better start with data and facts, instead of conjecture, or we're liable to miss the actual causal factors and not have the desired effect of stemming the trend. My 

you are very wrong that the Nez do anything for conservation in Washington, and there are serious problems in the Yakima area too.  You can’t tell me unregulated harvest along with an over abundance of predators isn’t a two fold problem?  I live in the Yakima area and see it first hand.  And spend a lot of time in the blues.

I didn't say the Nez or the Yaks did anything. I said that many tribes do work on conservation. Re-read my statements. I'm quite clear. What I did say is I don't see evidence that the impact natives are having on ungulate populations has changed in the period of time that the herds in the Blues have changed. Look past your personal feelings for things that HAVE changed. Again, if you only want to point fingers at all the people you've been pointing fingers at as the cause for the decline, you're likely going to miss the real causes. That's on you.

you should probably reread my statement.  It was the young are getting hammered by predators and tribal taking out bucks and bulls.  And a good look at actual management would be the Colvilles.  They manage predators and ungulates, and they are doing pretty good up there.  Our problem is three fold when you take in the 16’-17’ winters that definitely hurt them. Then you take in the predation in every subsequent year between calves and fawns and then mature bulls and bucks.  And it’s going to take forever to come back.  If ever

[pianoman9701]

I read it. You said I was very wrong regarding something I never said.

[Special T]

I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.

     

Why dont the tribes run hounds for cats and even kill wolves? That WOULD be mutually beneficial

We know some  do, just not to the same extent as we would like. One of the things I have come to learn is that some actions individual tribes take they keep to themselfs. They dont announce it to the world in a press release. Why? Perhaps at odds with another tribe, perhaps dont want to alarm the general public, perhaps a series of other social or political reasons.

What we should ask is what can sportsmen do to promote either hound hunting and/or trapping for predators. Turn the per ieved weakness into a strength. Animal rights groups quake at the feet of tribes. They have no power over them.

Would you endorse, promote, donate to a tribal program that specifically targeted predators?

Could you imagine how quickly the Yakimanelk herd would bounce back if that Tribe was Trapping and running dogs on Cats? The Govenor could do almost nothing in regaurds to the fake quoatas we are required to meet. Imagine the whining, crying and nashing of teeth The Dark Side WDFW employees would engage in... with no recourse to prevent harvest or the taking of animals. The benifit which would help all elk hunters.

[idaho guy]

I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.

     

Why dont the tribes run hounds for cats and even kill wolves? That WOULD be mutually beneficial

We know some  do, just not to the same extent as we would like. One of the things I have come to learn is that some actions individual tribes take they keep to themselfs. They dont announce it to the world in a press release. Why? Perhaps at odds with another tribe, perhaps dont want to alarm the general public, perhaps a series of other social or political reasons.

What we should ask is what can sportsmen do to promote either hound hunting and/or trapping for predators. Turn the per ieved weakness into a strength. Animal rights groups quake at the feet of tribes. They have no power over them.

Would you endorse, promote, donate to a tribal program that specifically targeted predators?

Could you imagine how quickly the Yakimanelk herd would bounce back if that Tribe was Trapping and running dogs on Cats? The Govenor could do almost nothing in regaurds to the fake quoatas we are required to meet. Imagine the whining, crying and nashing of teeth The Dark Side WDFW employees would engage in... with no recourse to prevent harvest or the taking of animals. The benifit which would help all elk hunters.

   

I agree with everything you just said!  That was my point. Yes I would 100% donate to and promote a tribal program targeting predators in Washington and I don't even live in the state. The best part is the greenies would be terrified to say anything about it for fear of being politically incorrect. Its a dream I have.  I am 100 percent behind natives controlling predators in states where the game departments are horribly mis managing them.  .     

[Special T]

I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.

     

Why dont the tribes run hounds for cats and even kill wolves? That WOULD be mutually beneficial

We know some  do, just not to the same extent as we would like. One of the things I have come to learn is that some actions individual tribes take they keep to themselfs. They dont announce it to the world in a press release. Why? Perhaps at odds with another tribe, perhaps dont want to alarm the general public, perhaps a series of other social or political reasons.

What we should ask is what can sportsmen do to promote either hound hunting and/or trapping for predators. Turn the per ieved weakness into a strength. Animal rights groups quake at the feet of tribes. They have no power over them.

Would you endorse, promote, donate to a tribal program that specifically targeted predators?

Could you imagine how quickly the Yakimanelk herd would bounce back if that Tribe was Trapping and running dogs on Cats? The Govenor could do almost nothing in regaurds to the fake quoatas we are required to meet. Imagine the whining, crying and nashing of teeth The Dark Side WDFW employees would engage in... with no recourse to prevent harvest or the taking of animals. The benifit which would help all elk hunters.

   

I agree with everything you just said!  That was my point. Yes I would 100% donate to and promote a tribal program targeting predators in Washington and I don't even live in the state. The best part is the greenies would be terrified to say anything about it for fear of being politically incorrect. Its a dream I have.  I am 100 percent behind natives controlling predators in states where the game departments are horribly mis managing them.  .   

You might get your chance! 

[rosscrazyelk]

I was lucky enough to be around during the glory years of the Blues.  It is sad what is happening. I had the same experience as some. The past 2 years I have not seen any calves. And with the report that just came out there will be no spikes to hunt next year and the herd is going to drop even more. No calves , means no bulls, no bulls means no future calves.  It will be interesting to see what actions the state will take. 
And I know this is and  will never be a favorable  topic but I cant imagine that keeping a general season open for the next few years would be a good idea.  Maybe just keep it open for the big bull draws. It's a tough pill  to swallow.

[trophyhunt]

Again, I say instead of limiting non tribal hunters, let’s all play by the same rules.  And when all the elk are gone, then maybe we can have an agreement between tribal and non tribal on management. This goes for the Yakima area as well. Some may think that’s a stupid idea, but I believe it’s the ONLY way to get some (not all) tribes to the table.

[Special T]

Again, I say instead of limiting non tribal hunters, let’s all play by the same rules.  And when all the elk are gone, then maybe we can have an agreement between tribal and non tribal on management. This goes for the Yakima area as well. Some may think that’s a stupid idea, but I believe it’s the ONLY way to get some (not all) tribes to the table.

How do you do that? Specifically...

[trophyhunt]

Again, I say instead of limiting non tribal hunters, let’s all play by the same rules.  And when all the elk are gone, then maybe we can have an agreement between tribal and non tribal on management. This goes for the Yakima area as well. Some may think that’s a stupid idea, but I believe it’s the ONLY way to get some (not all) tribes to the table.

How do you do that? Specifically...

open up the season for non natives to align with the tribes, take the nez for example. If it’s brown, it’s down, just follow all their rules till all the animals are gone. No animals to hunt should bring the tribes to the table. Painful and ugly, but I don’t see another solution that will get certain tribes to the table.

[Special T]

Again, I say instead of limiting non tribal hunters, let’s all play by the same rules.  And when all the elk are gone, then maybe we can have an agreement between tribal and non tribal on management. This goes for the Yakima area as well. Some may think that’s a stupid idea, but I believe it’s the ONLY way to get some (not all) tribes to the table.

How do you do that? Specifically...

open up the season for non natives to align with the tribes, take the nez for example. If it’s brown, it’s down, just follow all their rules till all the animals are gone. No animals to hunt should bring the tribes to the table. Painful and ugly, but I don’t see another solution that will get certain tribes to the table.

I'm sorry those are just platitudes, some of which I may have even repeated a time or 2 on here.
You have to get into the legal weeds to change anything on this issue. I am no expert, but since you have not cited any thing from a treaty or legal document,  you have stated a desire but not any kind of pathway.  If you were so inclined you could compare your wish with all the legal machinations  on the fish issue to try and find any similarities.  Right wrong or indifferent it isn't a very effective use of time and $, both in short supply... Let's also Add the the tribes have won all 13 lawsuits that have involved them.


Here is a realistic solution. Help some young tribal members gear up for trapping of running hounds. Donate funds to educate, buy traps, collars what have you. Turn them loose on ceded hunting grounds and provide some kind of incentive to kill lots of cats. More traps, dog food, veterinary credits whatever. Hunters like to focus on the negatives of native harvest. What if that pickup truck had a dog box and 3 cats strapped to it? Would you hate native harvest that much then?

[trophyhunt]

Well no, I’d love to see tribes use their rights to do most anything in a good way towards fish and game. I’d love to see tribes use the Collvile tribe as an example of how to manage. But some don’t want anything to do with management. Not all tribes are poor, the mucks have enough money to make all the tribes in our state rich!  The tribes have plenty of resources to run cats, bears or kill wolves, but that isn’t what sells or what gets under our skin.

[nwwanderer]

The history of elk in the blues is just a touch over a 100 years.  In the scheme of things, barely a wink.  The population has hit levels so far above capacity they have starved to death, have been down and nearly out a time or two and now with predator worship the ship may sink.  That is too harsh, flounder beyond repair without outside input.  Most of the branch antler tags this year have been filled on crop fed elk, not federal/state land.  Many of those bulls, at least one over 390, may not have even touched a cow a month or two ago.  Pretty sure there was/is more harvest in 127 than 154 with 154 getting the gift of many hours of WDFW 'management and 127 any elk with little WDFW input. They were very proud a couple years back that they only paid on 5 crop damage claims for the whole of the blues elk herd.  I know of a dozen or more in one little corner of that habitat.  Until the state and feds get together with a real plan, graze, log, burn, reduce predators, what you see is what you get.  Mountain maple and ninebark will not get the job done.  Lobby early and often.

[rosscrazyelk]

Another thing I noticed that could be a part of the problem with calves actually being born is stress. I witnessed  cows this week never even sit down. They were gathered and all stood for hours just looking in directions. Never moved their bodies just their heads. 2 hours and never even moving?
Something has them all on alert and stressed out and we all know what that is.

[Special T]

Well no, I’d love to see tribes use their rights to do most anything in a good way towards fish and game. I’d love to see tribes use the Collvile tribe as an example of how to manage. But some don’t want anything to do with management. Not all tribes are poor, the mucks have enough money to make all the tribes in our state rich!  The tribes have plenty of resources to run cats, bears or kill wolves, but that isn’t what sells or what gets under our skin.

You are correct not all tribes are the same. I have heard rumors that some tribes have been running dogs, and some have studies contradicting the WDFW Dark side crew. I remember a Colville tribal member who ran dogs and posted on here some time back. We don't hear from him but we need more like him on the N half.

I know this is about the blues so pardon the thread jack.  Imagine the benefits to the Yakima an Colockum elk herds if a dozen young tribal members were our running dogs and killing cats with the same vigor that we belive they are doing with elk. The Yakima have more ceded hunting grounds than anyone!

What is "fair" concerning tribal hunting has been discussed plenty, and nothing has happened. How about we all focus on something we could make happen? Perhaps if sportsmen could find a way to burry the hatchet we could all get more of what we want. Perhaps these rumored predator studies would be shared?  Perhaps Tribes would work with is more if we went constantly bad mouthing them? Do you think they want more anti hunting Comissioners like Smith and Points? We have 1 unfilled seat and possibly 2-3 more seats coming up for appointment. Isn't that important?

[Special T]

Another thing I noticed that could be a part of the problem with calves actually being born is stress. I witnessed  cows this week never even sit down. They were gathered and all stood for hours just looking in directions. Never moved their bodies just their heads. 2 hours and never even moving?
Something has them all on alert and stressed out and we all know what that is.

I belive the long term ID study reviled that elk aborted may calls due to stress. Due to The combination of cats and wolves.