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Author Topic: Sturgeon Report  (Read 7723 times)

Offline cohoho

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Sturgeon Report
« on: June 15, 2009, 06:01:39 PM »
Pretty good stuff here to add to the DISCUSSION not debate about the mortality rate of Sturgeon and fishing for same.  I got this today from a bio within the WDFG. I am truely impressed with the time he took to answer my questions in detail and give me alot of additional information to look at.   I won't give his name to keep him from getting punded on remarks, etc...  I still got four other documents that he sent to digest, but thought I'd put this out there for you guys to read and form your own bais thoughts.    Again, I think alot of folks totally mishandle these great fish, whether by breaking off during a fight and hook remaining within, or grabbing gills and pulling up onto the boat etc...  Anyhow here it is with my questions I asked him and his responses.  I know one thing, I'm going to switch to circle hooks as I had planned to try in the near future anyhow...  Mike

Hello Mike,

 I've attached a number of documents that may be of help in answering your
questions.  Unfortunately, we do not have any reports that directly address
all of what you are asking about.  Why don't you review what I've included,
and, if you have additional questions, get back to me.  In the mean time
I've attempted to answer some of your specific questions below.

 

1)      What is the belief within the state of Washington on this (oversize
sturgeon) fishery? And the factors that may limit its future?

.         We are confident that the white sturgeon population inhabiting the
lower Columbia River (LCR) is large enough to support both a substantial
keeper fishery and a modest fishery targeting oversize fish.  The LCR
population is estimated to exceed 800,000 fish, with 130,000 being of keeper
size.  The Fraser River population is estimated to be about 50,000 fish.

.         Our management is based on sustainable harvest that takes into
account all sources of mortality (sport and commercial harvest, handling
mortality related to catch and release in sport fisheries and in commercial
fisheries, poaching, and other sources).  I would point out that this
sustainable harvest rate will likely have to be reduced in the near future
to compensate for growing losses due to predation by sea lions.

.         The intent of our management approach is to escape more fish from
the legal-size population into the broodstock population than are lost from
the broodstock population due to mortality from the various sources.

.         The following are links to documents that describe our sturgeon
management approach: LCR Sturgeon Management Implications
(http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/whtsturg.htm ), December 9, 2008 Joint State Staff
Report (http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/crc/crcindex.htm ).

.         We have documented some mortality to broodstock (oversize).  After
some initial reports of dead sturgeon washing ashore downstream of the area
where anglers were first starting to target oversize fish in the early
1990s, we became concerned enough to implement a systematic survey of the
Columbia River downstream of the fishery for sturgeon carcasses.  Results of
the surveys are provided in the attached "carcass and hook summary".  We
suspect that a portion of these fish likely died from being handled in the
sport fishery due to the frequency of ingested hooks found in the carcasses.
As you have hypothesized, these large fish are handled multiple times during
their lifetime, even multiple times in a given year.  This is born out in
the carcasses, where we often find multiple hook setups in a fish.  Other
indications of hooking-caused mortality include punctured arteries in the
gill area.  These impacts would likely be far less if anglers switched from
using J-hooks to using circle hooks.

.         We do not know for certain how significant this may be to the
population, partly because we do not know what proportion of broodstock are
lost each year - the unknowns being: 1) the total number of broodstock lost
(we know that only a portion likely wash ashore were we find them) and 2)
the total number of broodstock in the population.

.         Because of these concerns, we have implemented a precautionary
approach to managing fisheries that includes protecting broodstock through
instituting spawning sanctuaries - closing certain areas of the river where
sturgeon congregate to spawn during the spawning timeframe.

.         This has not eliminated access to oversize sturgeon, only the
portion that we are most concerned about.  Anglers still fish for oversize
sturgeon just downstream of the spawning sanctuaries.  We have worked with
some of the guides to develop "Best Practices" for fishing for oversize (see
attachment).

2)      Is the (B.C.) view different from Washington's as to the
survivability of oversize compared to the taking of keepers for personal
use?

.         We have estimated annual survival for legal-size fish but not for
oversize sturgeon, so I cannot compare survival rates between the two
categories.  We do believe that an individual broodstock-size fish is much
more valuable to population productivity that a legal or sub-legal size
fish, since the broodstock population is comprised of the very small
proportion of juveniles that ever make it to adulthood.

.         I will point out again that we believe that harvest of "keeper"
size fish is supportable as long as it is kept to sustainable levels.

3)      Are there actual scientific tests done in Washington that confirm
what is stated (on some web sites) or is it perception?

.         I touched on this a bit in the fourth bullet under number 1.

.         We have assisted with research on the buildup of stress hormones
in sturgeon handled in the oversize fishery (see the attached Webb report).
The work indicates that the longer it takes to land an oversize sturgeon,
the greater the stress on the fish.  One concern we have is that too much
stress at the wrong time may lead to a portion or possible all of a fishes
eggs being reabsorbed.  There is nothing definitive on this for white
sturgeon, but it has been documented for some other fish species.

.         The best summary of information on the oversize white sturgeon
fishery is contained in the attached "white paper".

4)      Nothing is mentioned about contributing factors like grabbing the
gill plates and hoisting them in the boat as shown in several pictures on
various sites.  Does the WDF&G have a reward program for people reporting
illegal pulling fish out of the water?

.         We rely on our enforcement officers to enforce the rule.

5)      Are there thoughts of the fishery becoming C & R?

.         The history of our interaction with anglers throughout the
Columbia River indicates strong support from anglers towards maintaining and
enhancing harvest opportunity for white sturgeon.  We are able to provide
harvest fisheries in tandem with catch and release opportunity for
sublegal-size, legal-size, and oversize white sturgeon.

6)      Is there any way a Joe citizen can be a part of these surveys?

.         The stock assessment approach employed on the lower Fraser River
involving the provincial government, paid consultants associated with the
Fraser River Sturgeon Conservation Society, and volunteers has been quite
successful.  The limited resources that we currently direct towards managing
the lower Columbia River white sturgeon population are spread between
multiple activities, including sampling fisheries (this takes up most of our
resources), estimating harvest, modeling fishing season scenarios, in-season
fishery management, and stock assessment work including abundance estimation
and tracking other population parameters.  Our approach relies on utilizing
staff time from various non-sturgeon programs to help accomplish this.  We
have tried to incorporate some public participation with the stock
assessment program, but found that we did not have the resources necessary
to properly oversee such a program to ensure that accurate data was being
collected.

 


 

Offline singleshot12

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 06:43:15 PM »
Thanks cohoho, good report, sounds like they are doing there job too. Maybe there is hope for keeping these great fish around for a while.
Circle hooks or atleast a hook size of 5/0 or bigger,and non-stainless hooks,and maybe even line and rod restrictions?

More on this later
NATURE HAS A WAY

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SEARCHING FOR TRUTH, SEARCHING FOR PURITY, something that doesn't really exist anymore..

Offline tmike

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 06:49:47 PM »
That's interesting. Way to start up a good dialog Mike. I'd like to learn a bit about sturgeon since I don't know anything about them and want to start fishing for them more regularly. Thanks again.

Offline Hoytstaffshooter83

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 07:18:05 PM »
Interesting stuff to say the least, I find it very interesting that they have no idea if they reabsorb eggs or not, just mere speculation based on other species........ personally I would not mind a C & R fishery.... I think it could really build the numbers back up.... but that wont ever happen..... as far as the circle hooks, i just dont see how with a sturgeons mouth that would ever work? they dont really have a corner per say to hook into,  the hook problem I think can be adressed bu making line/ hook requirments for them, I use the heaviest stuff I can.... 100lb power pro main and 200lb leader with 10 or 12/0 hooks, I never try and take hooks that are really deep out, it is better to handle them with care and cut the line as far down as you can, taking one out could cause many potential issues....... good info

Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 07:42:01 PM »
I agree. It would be good to see a catch and release fishery on sturg. But We are up against the mentallity of kill to have a good time. As long as people think they have to kill them to have had a fun day on the water we won't see a C&R only fishery and they will continue to decline.

As for restrictions on the oversize. I think we need to get people to get better gear. I run a heavy rod and good reels (Daiwa SLD 30 2 speed) and 80# power pro. I actually think 80 is more than enough. I don't know anybody that can brake it. I have to tie it to the boat to get it to brake. The biggest thing with the big gators is handling.  Like any other fish if they are handled wrong then they won't make it. It makes me sick to see guys useing little Pen reels for the big one. they just make the fight to long and won't hold them like a good reel does. IMO

One of the funnest things to fish for is SEA MONSTERS. But they need to be treated right!!  I normally fish them every weekend mid May - early July and average 6-8 per day. All fish are hooked with big hooks (12/0 Gammi) and faught with good gear and left in the water and quickly let go.

I think nets in the Columbia do more harm than hook and line fisherman. Start with getting rid of nets. Join CCA
Kris
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Offline cohoho

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 08:08:08 PM »
On some of the reading I'm doing, most of Sturgeon injured or found dead during the survey- are from hooks left in, a clear indication of break off, torn mouth parts, torn gills from holding fish improperly, perforated guts from swallowing hooks that again BREAK off.  Leader lines extending through their vents, another form of breaking line off on a big fish.  Some were injured/killed by propeller contact... 

Circle hooks are widely utilized for Halibut and other bottom fish in Alaska and here with incredible success over J hook, they would work here too without a doubt.  The hooks don't slide to the corner of the mouth???  Hoyt have you ever tried Circle hooks?  Seems like your on the water more than most, rig up a rod and give it a go here this week.  I know all of my bigger set-ups are going to them this week... If any hook would slide it would be a J-Hook....  I saw the other day in an article from around Wanachee of a couple guides are ONLY using Cricle hooks, first off they prevent losing fish to weight pulling out line during slack line, greater hook ups percentages.  I'm reading a couple of guys have problems with hooking up consistently but going to circle greatly improved their success..

Well off to more reading...

Does anyone have the information if the fish side of the WDFG responds the same way the wildlife side does in regards to violators?

Offline Hoytstaffshooter83

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 08:37:46 PM »
I have not ever used them only seen them and from my understanding the design is utililzed by setting in the corner of a fish' mouth? many people I have talked with seem to think a circle hook wont work well......... you seem to think they will, ill give one a try soon, I have trips all this week...

Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 08:38:37 PM »
I'm trying to imagine how to get one of them circle hooks rigged in a whole Shad. Not sure about that one.

As for allot of the hook mortality on the big fish. You gotta think out of the box. Who says these fish are biten hooks that are being used for sturg. I can see the funny look on everybodys face now.

Imagine a bank full of fisher people all casting and drifting various baits. It doesn't matter what they are fishing for. No as we all know some of those people are snagging up on a stick or rock and brakeing off. what do you think happens to all that gear? it stays and makes a bigger mess and begins to snow ball. Now imagine big old sturg. He smells all this bait and comes up to check on it. sucks up some hooks. some are small and go down deep. He's hooked now and after a fight breaks allot of the gear off but that stuff is going to kill him soon. I heard a story from a Bio about this very situation and they say that nothing can be done. It's not the sturgeon fisher people who are killing them.


I think more importantly we need to use big hooks. IMO 10/0 is allmost to small. I run 12/0 gami hooks and have not had one take them deep yet. allways in the sucker. Allso you can't let them take the bait to long.

Kris
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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 08:39:57 PM »
So when i fish circle hooks for halibut i do not set the hook, would it be the same with a sturgeon???

Thanks for the info COHO, most of my questions are answered from a sturgeon BIO on IFISH, she goes by STGRule and is a good one. If you want facts from a sturgeon bio look her up.
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Offline Hoytstaffshooter83

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 08:47:38 PM »
I also think 10/0 are to small the problem is only one place has 12/0 bigirver gamis and they dont stock that many and at 7 bucks a pack they are not cheap, as far as letting them take it to long, i might disagree, it is really hard to tell when they have the bait, I have had some take the line and run for 10 sec before hooking them and the hook popped right out, others I have hit as soon as the start to rip line and it was deep but not dangerous, every fish is diff in that situation, I also am not sure how a circle hook would work in a shad? I have lanced many this year that had little hooks, like trout size coming out of them, those big fish eat anything, big or small.... I think I hook as many big ones this time of year as anyone and I have only had one have it deep enough where I was really worried about it after it swam away..... I think the main thing is poor gear, 99% of the fish I land are to the boat in under 30 min, most under 20..... good gear and a man on the rod that can play a fish and these monsters can be landed quick and safe........

Offline tmike

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 08:48:00 PM »
When using circle hooks let the fish hook itself, at least with halibut if you set to hard your not letting the hook do its job. I'm not sure if that's true with the light biting sturgeon. It would be interesting to know if the same holds true.

Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 09:00:38 PM »
Hoyt,

I agree 100% on the gear. I buy my hooks on ebay from a guy in Idaho. I can't remeber what I pay but it's nothin close to that!!!!!
As a guide you should contact Gami and see what they ca ndo for you.

Kris
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Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook twice?

Offline singleshot12

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 09:20:55 PM »
I agree. It would be good to see a catch and release fishery on sturg. But We are up against the mentallity of kill to have a good time. As long as people think they have to kill them to have had a fun day on the water we won't see a C&R only fishery and they will continue to decline.

Quote

I don't think that most fishermen that harvest their annual 5 keeper size sturgeon have the "kill mentality" to have a good time?.
I think most just plain enjoy just eating them.  If everyone just caught their five fish and then just left them alone the rest of the year would make a lot more sense for the sturgeon than being hooked and released all year long IMO.

As far as circle hooks, they are designed to set themselves in the mouth area to lesson the chance of being ingested.

  
NATURE HAS A WAY

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SEARCHING FOR TRUTH, SEARCHING FOR PURITY, something that doesn't really exist anymore..

Offline cohoho

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 09:21:58 PM »
Yea, it might be bit of a issue rigging a shad with a circle hook, but yea, I'll give it try next time...  Just have to run a small thin 1/4" copper pipe through the shad then thread a leader through the pipe, pull out tube and tie on a circle hook and pull it tight to the nose of the shad, notch the above the head and tail and wrap some thread around to finish securing it, line is inside.....  Just to see, I know we talked about it before, so heck why not ty it a couple times..

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Sturgeon Report
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 06:02:10 PM »
Anyone recognize these two skunks?
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

 


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