Response to the East Side Permit Only Idea.

[colockumelk]

Sako thank you for researching data and using real numberst to back up your arguments.  I really do appreciate that.  

Wow remind me never to compliment you again.  In return you blast me and call my info biased and slanted.  Real classy.  FYI I posted the East Side permit info in response to people like you that cried "But where would all the Colockum hunters go to."  I also posted it to show how many permits they could give out if instead of harvesting spikes they gave out permits and harvested them as Adult Bulls.  Not baby elk.  

As for the Colockum it does need to go to permit only.  And yes I'd love to see you punch holes in my theory about the Colockum.  Punch a hole in this.  I dare you.  2002 391 Bulls.  2009 85 bulls.  A drop of 78%.  Average spike survival rate = 17%.  If the Colockum elk herd were humans it would be GENOCIDE!  And by the way a healthy herd has a spike survival rate of 50%.  With your "odd/even" plan it would only get it up to 34%.  So it still wouldn't work.  And unlike you, I have spoken to the WDFW about this.  And I was told my numbers were withing + or - 5%.  So no the word radical was never used in our discussion. 

[colockumelk]

Then we need to address the secondary issues which will never go away and in fact will get worse each year that we wait.

I agree but while Yakama's kill 30-40 bulls a year we kill 10X that a year.  The Yakama's kill twice that in the Yakima herd but it doesn't affect them why?  Because they have a high enough recruitment that it doesn't matter.  Our recruitment is like walking on a tight rope.  Any deviance whatsoever makes you fall off.

[sako223]

Well from memory your numbers change slightly as we go and you state things prefaced as fact that may not be 100%.
Yes the Yakama's or tribal hunting is a known problem.
There are other issues that will directly affect herd survival rates. First my harvest rates may be partly cows. Secondly we need to seriously address agricultural damage and the resulting harvest by Master Hunters(1 or 2 tags) or landowners. I don't like seeing landowner tags being sold for $5-10,000 or handed out to political buddies.

Ending archery either-sex hunts should have shored up the Colockum's cow elk numbers and created better calf production, but ongoing damage control hunts have been taking roughly 250 cows per season, about 100 more than the bow-and-arrow guys gave up.

These kill numbers won't go away until we work on it. With homes popping up everywhere it will get worse. Fencing is an old but effective start.
Another adjustment can be made to the season, run Wed thru Fri, or simply cut off the last weekend which is often desperation hunting anyway.
Hunter days are always a wake up figure when calculating pressure and the opposite being the effect on the economy.
Example
5000 colockum hunters averaging 10 days in the field is 50,000 hunter days.
12,000 colockum hunters averaging 10 days in the field is 120,000 hunter days.
These figures reflect a lot of hunting pressure and fuel, food clothes, tires, repairs and so on.
So simply trimming 2 days could result in 10-24,000 hunter days in the field offset.
By not getting overly creative(complicated) there appear to be many ways to address harvest.

I got the word Radical from your post.

Having been to a WDFW meeting I can honestly say that the committee is in WAY, WAY, WAY over their  heads.  While I gave my speal on why the Colockum should be permit only, one of them asked me "where did you get those radical statistics from."  My response "FROM THE WDFW WEBSITE."  His response.  "Oh!"

[colockumelk]

I appologize I got hit pretty hard in the head today (literally) was in a bad mood.  I seriously appologize blowing up at you Sako.  I re-read my post and realized I sort of shot from the hip.  I agree 150% with what you said.  As far as damage hunts go the "Master Hunter" thing is a band-aid.  Why is the Yakima GMU's fenced but not the Colockum?  I think that closing the last weekend would be an excellant start.  I also agree with your odd/even thing.  Basically anything to help out the herd. 

I see where you may have thought they thought I was radical.  I should have explained why they asked me where I got my numbers.  They meant where I got the numbers of the reduction in branch bull numbers and spike survival rates.  I guess you're right they did think I was radical and exagerating.  That is until I told him my numbers came from their bio's reports, harvest data etc.  Sort of hard for that chairman to call me a liar when my facts come from their website. 

I just interviewed a bio sako and learned a ton of really interesting stuff.  When I'm done with my paper comparing PMU 33 (GMU 336, 346, 342 and 340) to the Colockum you'll see.  Got some cool behind the scenes info.  Again sorry dude.  Sometimes my temper is short. 

[sako223]

It's cool, I'm fine with debating all the numbers. No matter the outcome.
Finding a compromise is not easy and selling it won't be a breeze either.
My remedies are developing with each post.
The two limits to work with are keep hunters in the field and reduce current harvest numbers. These two clash but it is doable.
Fencing will be hard to find money for but could pay for itself quickly. Fencing has a way of regulating access too. At times escapement is provided by fencing.
Many orchards pay for their own fencing as wildlife damage has lasting effects on trees and hurts irrigation systems. Pasture and hay fields don't pay enough return to warrant this.
Hopefully WDFW will be receptive enough to consider some tweaking.

[colockumelk]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/elk/colockum_oct06.pdf pg 19

Sako you wouldn't beleive how fast it would pay for itself.  Check out how much each year the WDFW has to pay out to damages.  It's BS.  This is what pisses me off about the local farmers.  And someone please explain this to me.  The hay farmers claim the elk damage their fields.  But.....   every winter you see cattle wintering and grazing in the hayfields.  So how does the cattle not jack up the fields but the elk do???

I like your idea of limiting the season to like 6 days.  While probably 80% of the harvested elk are shot on opening weekend it would still help out alot.  I've got a PM for ya sako.

[bearpaw]

I haven't voted on this poll yet.

I was just wondering why you worded option 4 so that you can't apply and then hunt the OTC areas.

[bobcat]

He has it that way because if you could apply for the permit only GMU's and also hunt the OTC units in the same year, the OTC areas would get way too much hunting pressure.

[bearpaw]

Due to that, I don't see an option that I wish to vote for.

[huntnphool]

Due to that, I don't see an option that I wish to vote for.

Don't worry, they will just "deem" the options they want through.

[colockumelk]

I haven't voted on this poll yet.

I was just wondering why you worded option 4 so that you can't apply and then hunt the OTC areas.

I thought that's how you said they do that in Utah.  That one was your idea. 

[grundy53]

ever since the west side went to 3 point or better there has been way more elk and alot bigger bulls. what if the eastside went to this?

[colockumelk]

You can't do this on the east side like you do on the west side.  The reason is the terrain.  On the east side its far too open the elk wouldn't have any place to escape the modern rifle season.  The west side is so thick they have lots of escapement.  The range of a scoped rifle doesn't help as much as the open east side.  Also on the west side most of the land is forest service land that you have to walk into.  Over on the east side you can drive almost anywhere.  This is why going to 3pt min wouldn't work.

Back before 1994 it was any bull and when you went to the feeding station seeing a rag horn 5pt was a rare thing.  Now they are a dime a dozen. 

[grundy53]

thanks colockum. makes sense. i guess its a good thing i hunt elk on the west side. lol

[colockumelk]

I'll be joining you shortly.  I suck at cow hunting with a bow they are way to smart.  Every year I call in branch bulls so that I can look at them. Yessir hunting stupid horny bulls is more my style. I'm going west.  Well someday.  I'll be in Alabama for the next two years.  But after that I'll try my hardest to deplete the elk herds near the PCT.