Elk will be gone in Idaho by 2012

[wolfbait]

Kaibab deer inciddent-myths-lies and scientific fraud

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Charles%20Kay/85-Kaibab%20deer%20inciddent-myths-lies%20and%20scientific%20fraud.pdf

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Wolfbait, that was so convoluted it's hard to decipher what point the author was trying to make.

[M_ray]

  We all agree!!!! 

no we don't, not at all.

I want high hunter success rates, robust herds of Elk and lot's of moose.
I want people to be able to graze their private land and lease private timber lands for sheep/cattle
I want to continue public grazing.




I don't want small struggling Elk herds that turn good habitat into bad, because they can't make use of what they already have. 
Underutilized habitat is bad habitat with poor nutrition.

I don't see a lot of agreement here.

You don't agree with needing good habitat and predator management?

Is there an axe-grinding emoticon? 

Its your fault!!!  you had to go and say we all agree!!! 

[WAcoyotehunter]

WAcoyotehunter go thumb through the deer section and find all the threads complaining about cattle being left on range too long, and ask yourself why they're hunting in cattle graze areas to begin with.

WAcoyotehunter go thumb through the deer section and find all the threads complaining about cattle being left on range too long, and ask yourself why they're hunting in cattle graze areas to begin with.

exactly!  All benificial brush, shrubbery , grasses, ect. Are stimulated to new growth by pruning (eating) and new growth is the most nutritious.  It keeps everything from getting choked out and helps keep saplings from getting so thick they choke even them selves out

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

Don't get me wrong- I'm not necessarily anti public grazing.  I think it has a place on the landscape.  But to claim that it's good for the habitat is very ignorant.

I have seen (literally) millions spent on restoration projects on public land due to grazing.  That's millions of PUBLIC dollars to restore PUBLIC land due to PRIVATE grazing.  The effect that cattle have on streams, meadows, young trees, and riparian areas costs the taxpayers a small fortune. 

Public grazing has it's place, but not under the guise of habitat improvement.

[Special T]

"Management" requires $. I think we have plenty of land but there isn't nearly enough logging and small projects that help increase the ability to have productive land.

We used to slash burn old clear cuts and that was actually good for the ecosystem but  doing it right takes funds continuously where as Fed funds for study and purchase of lands is "Free" money.

Actually, burning ended because of complaints about bad air if I remember correctly.

There is some "Controlled Burns" But not nearly enough in my mind.  Im no fire expert but i would imagine winter/early spring burns would do the most good with the least amount of damage. Im guessing they do lots of it in the fall so that they can let the rain put them out?

[bobcat]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

[idahohuntr]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

On multiple use public rangeland - grazing has its place among the competing uses for those public resources.  Managed properly, the negative impacts of grazing on the public's fish and wildlife can be minimized.  For someone to say grazing is good for wildlife is just another egregious example of how some will distort the truth and try to pull the wool over sportsmens eyes.  Bighorn sheep interactions with domestic sheep are a classic example of a few benefiting at the demise of an extraordinary public resource.

[JimmyHoffa]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

Always saw a lot more deer on ranches with cattle than on areas not grazed.  Cattle would focus more on grasses and some of the broad leafs.  Seemed the browse could come up, rather than be choked out by three foot tall grass.

[wolfbait]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

Always saw a lot more deer on ranches with cattle than on areas not grazed.  Cattle would focus more on grasses and some of the broad leafs.  Seemed the browse could come up, rather than be choked out by three foot tall grass.

The benefits of grazing

Through a variety of wildlife management techniques, the Work Family Ranch has more than 300 different species thriving there, including tule elk, which at one time were nearly extinct. Along with that, there are several hundred head of beef cattle and a small herd of horses.

Pelayo Alvarez, Defenders of Wildlife program manager based in Sacramento, says that in California the grazing season is short, compared to other areas in the United States, so grazing has to be carefully managed for positive environmental outcomes.

“But grazing isn’t the only thing that impacts the range. A big problem we have in California is invasive species,” he said. “Grazing is probably one of the most important tools we have for controlling things like yellow starthistle. Cows, sheep and goats all eat it.”

A native of Eurasia, yellow starthistle was introduced accidentally sometime around 1849. Alvarez says it is by far the fastest-spreading and most-invasive nonnative plant the state has ever seen.

“One of the things I’d like to stress is that we need the ranchers in order to have effective rangeland conservation,” he said. “It’s not just about various interests—the public, environmentalists, government agencies and ranchers—getting along. It’s that we need each other to restore and protect our native grassland and savannahs.

“The idea that you can protect the land—and at the same time farmers and ranchers can make a living—that’s just great, especially when it adds up to a positive effect on our environment,” Alvarez said.

Work offers another example of how cattle improve the rangeland. To begin a habitat restoration project, the family used their cattle to knock down invasive, fire-prone brush and allow a greater variety of native plants to return. They tossed some alfalfa hay into the area they wanted cleared and turned the cattle in.

“In two feedings of about 15 minutes each, the hungry cattle crushed the brush with their excited behavior,” he said. “No land-scarring firebreak needed, no burn permit, no air pollution and no fire scarring of the landscape to clear it. The trampled brush provided ground cover to prevent winter erosion from runoff and spring brought a resurgence of perennial grasses and tender sprouts, which was wonderful deer feed.”

What’s sometimes misunderstood, ranchers say, is that California’s vital grasslands aren’t beautiful and healthy by accident. Restoring and maintaining this native environment takes a lot of thought and commitment.

The California Farm Bureau Federation has joined the California Cattlemen’s Association, ranchers, environmentalists, university and government researchers and a number of state and federal agencies to form the California Rangeland Conservation Coalition. The coalition is united by the understanding that nearly all species of grassland birds, most native plants and threatened vernal pool species benefit from responsible grazing practices.  http://www.californiabountiful.com/features/article.aspx?arID=561


Livestock Grazing On The National Forests Why continue to do it?

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5401590.pdf


Where Cattle Roam and Wild Grasses Grow

 managed grazing can help create better wildlife habitat on some public lands
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mcvmagazine/issues/2013/jul-aug/cattle.html

Livestock Grazing Benefits Public Lands

http://www.americancowboychronicles.com/2014/04/livestock-grazing-benefits-public-lands.html

Contrary to GAO report, public lands grazing provides numerous benefits

https://www.beef.org/uDocs/grazing293.pdf


Benefits of Grazing Animals

Grazing animals can be an important factor in maintaining balanced and diverse ecosystems.

Fire Hazard Reduction
Benefits to Plant Life
Benefits to Wildlife
http://www.ebparks.org/about/stewardship/grazing/benefits

Grazing as a Public Good

Rangeland science backs up Hoch’s contention. Studies in numerous states show that conservation grazing can as much as double plant diversity in an area—it not only prevents overgrazing but the cattle’s manure and urine helps recharge the soil’s biology. Hoch and other habitat experts working in western Minnesota have observed how grazing has increased native plant communities by knocking back invasive cool season plants like Kentucky bluegrass and smooth brome. Such invasives can blanket the land with a homogeneous cover, which limits the diversity wildlife such as deer, waterfowl, shorebirds and grassland songbirds require. Such grasses also tend to go dormant in hot weather and provide limited habitat and foraging areas for pollinators.

Cattle are also being used to thin out cattails and reed-canary grass around wetlands, providing the open areas many waterfowl prefer when keeping a lookout for predators. And controlled grazing of riparian areas is proving to be an effective way to stabilize areas along waterways and lakes.

The science has become so convincing that conservation groups such as the Nature Conservancy and the National Audubon Society have changed their once decidedly negative view of cattle and now see them as an effective habitat management tool.

http://landstewardshipproject.org/posts/627

[wolfbait]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

On multiple use public rangeland - grazing has its place among the competing uses for those public resources.  Managed properly, the negative impacts of grazing on the public's fish and wildlife can be minimized.  For someone to say grazing is good for wildlife is just another egregious example of how some will distort the truth and try to pull the wool over sportsmens eyes.  Bighorn sheep interactions with domestic sheep are a classic example of a few benefiting at the demise of an extraordinary public resource.

Grazing as a Habitat Management Tool
http://www.landsoftexasmagazine.com/articles/grazing-as-a-habitat-management-tool


USDA partnership improving sage-grouse habitat, grazing lands

"American ranchers are working with us to help sage-grouse because they know they are helping an at-risk bird while also improving the food available for their livestock," Bonnie said. "As the saying goes, 'What's good for the bird is good for the herd." http://beefproducer.com/story-usda-partnership-improving-sage-grouse-habitat-grazing-lands-10-123952


Cattle Can Improve Sagebrush Habitat With a Little Training

http://onpasture.com/2015/01/26/cattle-can-improve-sagebrush-habitat-with-a-little-training/#sthash.51sqmpCb.dpuf



Fall Grazing With Sheep To Improve Sage-Grouse Habitat
https://extension.usu.edu/rangelands/htm/utah-projects/jmsspw/improving-sagegrouse-habitat/

Conservation Grazing for Land Stewardship
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/86641.html

Planned Grazing 8 - Wildlife in the Mix

http://www.thecattlemanmagazine.com/archives/2010/08/planned_grazing_8.html

CATTLE MANAGEMENT TO ENHANCE WILDLIFE HABITAT IN SOUTH TEXAS

http://krirm.tamuk.edu/text/Resources/CattleManagement_OrtegaandBryant.pdf


Using Cows to Improve Wildlife Habitat and Increase Pronghorn

http://circleranchtx.com/cows-and-pronghorn/

Improving Quality of Winter Forage for Elk by cattle Grazing
http://www.gardnerfiles.com/23-i%20%20%20Improving%20Winter%20Forage%20by%20Grazing%20Cattle.pdf

Improving Elk Habitat Characteristics with Livestock Grazing

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/eoarc/sites/default/files/publication/404.pdf

Elk and Cattle Grazing Can Be Complementary
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2111/RANGELANDS-D-12-00068.1

[bearpaw]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

Always saw a lot more deer on ranches with cattle than on areas not grazed.  Cattle would focus more on grasses and some of the broad leafs.  Seemed the browse could come up, rather than be choked out by three foot tall grass.

Most of the professors in our universities are opposed to predator management, opposed to logging, opposed to grazing, and in general opposed to most any use of the land. They teach students that all these uses are bad for our lands so all the students believe that is true and after graduating are hired into biologist positions believing all use and predator management is bad. I don't blame individual biologists for being misinformed because that is what they were taught to get their degree so they can get a job.

I simply ask that anyone with an open mind look at the facts:

Look at each state and compare wilderness areas to logged or grazed areas. The best game populations in most any state are on the lands that are farmed, ranched, and/or logged. In most cases the lowest carrying capacity is in remote areas with no use.

In Washington where are the highest deer populations? GMU's in northeast WA that are farmed, grazed, and/or logged heavily!

In Washington where are the highest elk populations? GMU's in southwest WA that are logged heavily!

In Washington where are the highest bear populations? GMU's on the OP, in the Southwest, in the northwest, and in the Northeast, most of which have been logged and/or grazed for many years.

You can do the same thing in each of the western states and it quickly becomes apparent that logging, proper grazing, farming, and even gas and oil development is very compatible with wildlife when done properly. Obviously extreme use will have a detrimental effect just as no use seems to have a detrimental effect on herds.

Simply look at the facts for the truth!

[Bob33]

"You can do the same thing in each of the western states and it quickly becomes apparent that logging, proper grazing, farming, and even gas and oil development is very compatible with wildlife when done properly. "

I think it's a question of which came first. Do deer live on ground that is grazed because grazing made it better, or do cattle graze on land because it's richer in food than surrounding habitat, and therefore also attracks deer?

[bobcat]

It's not fair to compare wildife numbers in wilderness areas to other areas. Most, if not all, wilderness areas are wilderness because it's the most unproductive land and when this country was settled, nobody wanted it. It wasn't good for farming, grazing, or logging. Almost all of  the official wilderness areas in Washington state are high elevation, and made up of more rock than anything else. Of course those areas don't have a high density population of deer and elk. It's not due to a lack of cattle grazing in those areas! Obviously deer and elk are going to do better in areas with good soil where there is plenty to eat. And, coincidentally, that is also where domestic livestock does the best.

[Special T]

Information presented by the WDFW states that "Edge Habitat" is where most animals thrive. It is where food and cover meet.  Logginh provides more Edge Habitat than wildnerness areas left to themselves. That isnt to say that Everywhere should be logged, however there is a LOT of USFS land that could use a good thinning at a min.

[idahohuntr]

"You can do the same thing in each of the western states and it quickly becomes apparent that logging, proper grazing, farming, and even gas and oil development is very compatible with wildlife when done properly. "

I think it's a question of which came first. Do deer live on ground that is grazed because grazing made it better, or do cattle graze on land because it's richer in food than surrounding habitat, and therefore also attracks deer?

There are many factors that influence the distribution of animals on the landscape.  Bob33 and bobcat make excellent points.  Those that reference seeing more deer on grazed land must also consider other external factors - a big one being hunting pressure...is said grazing land open to public hunting? Or is it private land with restricted hunter numbers?  That can have a much bigger influence than habitat quality on animal distribution during hunting seasons.

As I stated earlier, grazing has its place on multi-use public lands.  While we are focusing very narrowly on deer and elk, let us not forget the impacts grazing can have on fish, riparian habitats, and other large scale factors like the introduction and spread of invasive species (noxious weeds etc.) and diseases...wild sheep? Hoof Rot?

Lots to consider.