Our public land rights could be in peril

[bbarnes]

Land Rights Network
Just a FYI this was sent to me and i thought i would pass it on we better plan to attend.
American Land Rights Association

PO Box 400 * Battle Ground, WA 98604

Phone:  360-687-3087  360-687-3087  * Fax: 360-687-2973

E-mail: alra@pacifier.com<mailto:alra@pacifier.com>

Web Address: http://www.landrights.org

Legislative Office: 507 Seward Square SE * Washington, DC 20003

　

　

Alert, Obama Great Outdoors Meeting In Seattle, Thursday, July 1st.

　

　

Alert * Alert -- Alert

　

　

Private property, multiple-use, recreation and rural community

advocates must attend.

　

　

This is a big deal. You do not want to miss out or find out later

that you lost rights because you failed to go to this listening

session.

　

　

-----There is a concept in law called *laches* or *sleeping on

your rights.* If you fail to participate in a planning process, you

may be prevented from asserting your rights in court later.

　

　

These listening sessions are the beginning of the Obama Great

Outdoors Initiative that will involve massive new land use controls

nationwide. Only the environmental groups and Congress are getting

notified ahead of time to the best of our knowledge.

　

　

This listening session is about the plan that is part of the battle

between the House Natural Resources Committee and the White House and

Interior Departments over the release of secret documents describing

the full extent of the Obama Great Outdoors Initiative.

　

　

We have included below the background information from the House

Natural Resources Committee effort to get the Obama Administration to

give up the secret documents about the whole Obama Great Outdoors

Initiative.

　

　

-----It is critical that the Seattle listening session be attended by

ranchers, miners, forestry advocates, recreation advocates, private

property rights allies, rural community advocates and anyone

concerned about the spread of big government and the Obama land use

control plans.

　

　

Below we have listed the information so you can attend the Seattle

listening session along with background information. This will be the

only listening session in the Northwest so you need to go.

　

　

You do not have to sign up in advance although that is good if you

can. The information to sign up by e-mail and fax are listed below.

　

　

Please accept our apology for the late notice but the Obama

Administration has so far been doing everything it can to keep these

listening sessions secret until the last minute except for the

environmental groups. So your attendance is critical.

　

　

Three listening sessions were recently held in Montana with limited

advance announcement distribution. Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) was

involved but did little or nothing to make sure his constituents

learned about the listening sessions. The meetings were held hundreds

of miles from the people most directly affected. This whole plan

appears to be a bait and switch effort to develop land use controls

across America. It is vital that you attend the Seattle meeting.

　

　

The three listening sessions in Montana had virtually no notice to

private property and multiple-use groups. The result was that many

people who support grazing, mining, logging, recreation, private

property and rural communities were not there. That must not happen

again. Montana residents should call Senator Baucus at  (202) 224-3121  (202) 224-3121

to let his staff know how they feel about being left out.

　

　

Washington residents can call Senators Patty Murray (D-WA) and Maria

Cantwell (D-WA) at the same  (202) 224-3121  (202) 224-3121  to express their concern

that these listening sessions be handled fairly and openly and that

all affected groups get notified. You can call any Senator at that

same number.

　

　

It is vital that your side of the issue be represented. This is about

the Obama America*s Great Outdoors Initiative, Treasured Landscapes

and National Monument programs. Millions of acres of private land

will be purchased under threat of eminent domain if this program goes

forward. Red tape and strangling regulations will in your future if

you do not stand up and oppose the Obama America*s Great Outdoors

Initiative now. The time to fight back is now, not later. You must

hit them early. You cannot miss this meeting.

　

　

-----Here is a recent Interior Department release:

　

　

Invitations to the America*s Great Outdoors public listening and

learning session for Washington were sent to stakeholder groups today

(read environmental groups). As you can see from the sample invitation

below, the event will be held on Thursday, July 1, 2010 in Seattle,

Washington.

　

　

On April 16, the President established the America*s Great Outdoors

Initiative to promote and support innovative community-level efforts

to conserve outdoor spaces and reconnect Americans to the outdoors.

　

　

The Initiative is led by Secretaries Salazar and Vilsack, CEQ Chair

Sutley, and EPA Administrator Jackson, who recently sent a letter to

each Member and Senator to inform Congress about the Initiative.

　

　

Senior Administration officials are visiting sites and participating

in listening and learning sessions around the country, in communities

where diverse coalitions are working together in innovative ways to

protect and restore outdoor spaces.

　

　

These sessions are intended to engage the full range of interested

groups, including tribal leaders, farmers and ranchers, sportsmen,

community park groups, foresters, business people, educators, state

and local governments and recreation and conservation groups. Special

attention is being placed on bringing young Americans into the

conversation.

　

　

For more information, or to add your suggestions on this initiative,

please visit: http://www.doi.gov/americasgreatoutdoors/

　

　

Please feel free to contact me or my colleague Nate Hundt with

questions.

　

　

Lara Levison

Office of Congressional and Legislative Affairs

Department of the Interior

 202-208-7693  202-208-7693

Lara_Levison@ios.doi.gov<mailto:Lara_Levison@ios.doi.gov>

nate_hundt@ios.doi.gov<mailto:nate_hundt@ios.doi.gov>

　

　

Join the Conversation about America's Great Outdoors

　

　

Americans have a proud tradition of working together - from the

ground-up - to conserve farmland and open space for future

generations, restore rivers and streams, protect areas for hiking and

biking, preserve beaches and coastlines, conserve wildlife habitat for

fishing and hunting, and restore the cultural and historic sites that

tell America's story. In fact, community-driven efforts to conserve

America's land, water, and wildlife are a major reason why we are

blessed with the parks, refuges, forests, and open spaces that we

enjoy today.

　

　

Starting with the White House Conference on the Great Outdoors held

on April 16, President Obama launched a national dialogue about

conservation in America. As part of this dialogue, we are bringing

together ranchers, farmers and forest landowners, sportsmen and

women, state and local government leaders, tribal leaders,

public-lands experts, conservationists, youth leaders, business

representatives, and others to learn about some of the smart,

creative ways communities are conserving outdoor spaces.

　

[Tony 270]

I saw a whole bunch of blah, blah, blah and not much that said what the land was wanted for. Then also the typical gov holding meetings last minute (to our knowledge and far from those potentially affected). Have anything that states facts and actual proposals?

[bigtex]

I saw a whole bunch of blah, blah, blah and not much that said what the land was wanted for. Then also the typical gov holding meetings last minute (to our knowledge and far from those potentially affected). Have anything that states facts and actual proposals?

 

Kind of hard to read with the spacing too

[WAcoyotehunter]

The meeting dates and locations are on the first page of the website.

This could be a good thing and might help protect our public land from mismanagement and from development or poorly managed resource extraction.   It doesn't appear to be a threat to hunting.

(b) The goals of the Initiative shall be to:
(i) Reconnect Americans, especially children, to
America's rivers and waterways, landscapes of national
significance, ranches, farms and forests, great parks,
and coasts and beaches by exploring a variety of
efforts, including:
(A) promoting community-based recreation and
conservation, including local parks, greenways,
beaches, and waterways;
(B) advancing job and volunteer opportunities
related to conservation and outdoor recreation;
and
(C) supporting existing programs and projects
that educate and engage Americans in our history,
culture, and natural bounty.
(ii) Build upon State, local, private, and tribal
priorities for the conservation of land, water,
wildlife, historic, and cultural resources, creating
corridors and connectivity across these outdoor
spaces, and for enhancing neighborhood parks; and
determine how the Federal Government can best advance
those priorities through public private partnerships
and locally supported conservation strategies.
more
3
(iii) Use science-based management practices to
restore and protect our lands and waters for future
generations.
Sec. 2. Functions. The functions of the Initiative shall
include:
(a) Outreach. The Initiative shall conduct listening and
learning sessions around the country where land and waters are
being conserved and community parks are being established in
innovative ways. These sessions should engage the full range
of interested groups, including tribal leaders, farmers and
ranchers, sportsmen, community park groups, foresters, youth
groups, businesspeople, educators, State and local governments,
and recreation and conservation groups. Special attention
should be given to bringing young Americans into the
conversation. These listening sessions will inform the reports
required in subsection (c) of this section.

[Gringo31]

I see it as nothing more than a push to get everyone thinking green.  Global warming, carbon emissions, evil man etc, are all ruining the earth blah, blah, blah.  Try to get everyone to focus on the creation not the creator.

[Little Dave]

Here's the information they are gathering.

WE WANT YOUR INPUT
QUESTIONS WE NEED TO HAVE YOU ANSWER IN YOUR LISTENING SESSION.
During each listening session we ask these four questions. We ask that you do the same in your listening session.
1. Challenges: What obstacles exist to achieve your goals for conservation, recreation, or reconnecting people to the outdoors?
2. What works: What are the most effective strategies for conservation, recreation and reconnecting people to the outdoors that you have used?
3. Federal government role: How can the federal government be a more effective partner in helping to achieve conservation, recreation or reconnecting people to the outdoors?
4. Tools: What additional tools and resources would help your efforts be even more successful?

Can we get the kids to march with shovels?

It's held at Franklin High School.  If you live out of the area, you can use this map to find it...

[Elkaholic daWg]

The meeting dates and locations are on the first page of the website.

This could be a good thing and might help protect our public land from mismanagement and from development or poorly managed resource extraction.   It doesn't appear to be a threat to hunting.

 Regulate, regulate, REGULATE
But I see threats to other user groups that we should be banded together with. I can just imagine the comments from the city and county that dictates this as the menopause state. Here's the "It doesn't affect me" mentality. That approach worked well in Germany in the 1930s. see  Bearpaws signature

[WAcoyotehunter]

I agree that groups with common interests should help one another out, but mismanagement should be regulated.  If it wasn't we would not have any trees left in the forest and there would be a mine/well around every corner... We need to protect wild places from those developments and from resource mismanagement. 

[Elkaholic daWg]

  And after it's all said and done you learn that the sierra club, wilderness society, and defenders of wildlife are the same people. That's right.... USFWS and DOW  share a common leader. Lead one before the other after.
 Do you have any examples of USFS, BLM etc. land  being developed into anything other than ski areas? or mismanaged resources?

[Little Dave]

This film states 80 percent of our nation lives in the city... more kids are fatter and spend about half the time their parents spent outside.  Then on the other hand, the principle of closing down the resource industries such as logging, mining does what?  It causes more people to move to the cities for lack of work and become further detached from reality.  It causes the land to become ripe for developments like Suncadia.

Consider the last twenty years with logging shut down, mills closed.  About the only thing left behind in our rural setting is drug manufacturing and urban-principled, zoo-style wildlife management... yes there are a few towns like Winthrop and Leavenworth that *censored*ize themselves to sell waffle cone ice creams to folks from the city.

The federal government has little or no business in this discussion.  Ideally Washington forest lands held by the federal government should be managed by the state.  How is it that a congressman from Indiana or a senator from Connecticut or a president from Chicago give a damn about our resources and industry here when we have enough trouble as it is with our own east/west problem?  We shouldn't be sending so much money to DC.  For matters such as these, it should stay local where we have a better chance for accountability per tax dollar paid.

It is difficult to work with these environment-themed organizations.  They are lawyers and politicians seeking money and power.  They have captured a movement which started with the cleanup of rivers back in the 1970s and turned it into a money making business leveraging emminent domain for lucrative real estate deals and huge taxpayer funded lawsuits.  Where is the best place for people to be to perpetuate this deceitful business?  That's right... the city.  Just send in a $20 donation and we'll send you a canvas tote bag for your groceries with a picture of a tree on it.

[Elkaholic daWg]

  Good points Dave


 WAcoyotehunter,
  Here is a proposal for protecting one said "wild places" that is supported by all three organizations I mentioned before. and  might have a little problem with hunting the area after it is done. Same people-same goals





http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100627/OPINION01/706279938/-1/opinion01#Completing.a.worthy.vision
 
 
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Published: Sunday, June 27, 2010

IN OUR VIEW / EXPANDING NORTH CASCADES NATIONAL PARK

Completing a worthy vision
The National Parks may well be America's Best Idea, as filmmaker Ken Burns declared in his recent PBS series. The North Cascades National Park may be one of its best-kept secrets.

It's not that folks around here haven't heard of this majestic slice of natural beauty, which occupies nearly 685,000 acres on either side of Highway 20 east of the Skagit County town of Concrete. It's that most who have heard of it have never set foot inside. Highway 20 bisects the park, but none of it lies inside the park boundaries. Only one road leads from the highway into the park.

A tireless group of conservationists, led by the North Cascades Conservation Council and the Mountaineers, is pushing to make access a whole lot easier. That's part of a larger and very welcome effort, dubbed the American Alps Legacy Project, to expand the park's acreage by almost 50 percent. It would bring about 245,000 acres of U.S. Forest Service land and 57,700 acres of the Ross Lake National Recreation Area into the park. It's all a matter of redesignating existing federal land; no private land is involved.

Doing so will add needed protections to pristine streams, old-growth forests and sub-alpine lakes. And it will complete the original vision for the park, which came up short due to a series of political compromises when Congress created it in 1968. The Highway 20 corridor would become part of the park, with new entrances and visitor centers, along with 25 miles of new family-friendly trails. New visitor amenities would include waterfall tours, cultural interpretation sites and ecotourism viewpoints.

Some of the hearty souls who helped win the park's original designation, now in their 80s and 90s, are pushing the expansion effort. Among them are Laura and Phil Zalesky, both 86-year-old retired teachers from the Everett School District and two of the area's most celebrated conservationists.

The Snohomish County Council has unanimously endorsed the idea. Former Gov. and U.S. Sen. Dan Evans, who as governor helped spearhead creation of the park, is part of the campaign. Expanding the park requires an act of Congress, and that part of the politicking is just getting started.

First comes a summer of community outreach, during which the North Cascades Conservation Council and others will hold informational meetings throughout the area. They've been meeting with interest groups, such as hunters, to win support by ensuring that new boundaries are drawn in ways that minimize disruption of traditional activities.

They also commissioned an economic impact study, which found that the expansion would lead to the creation of about 1,000 jobs, most of them tourism-related.

With the National Park Service's centennial coming up in 2016, we can't imagine a more appropriate way to mark the occasion here than by improving on America's Best Idea, and letting more Americans enjoy it.

[WAcoyotehunter]

  And after it's all said and done you learn that the sierra club, wilderness society, and defenders of wildlife are the same people. That's right.... USFWS and DOW  share a common leader. Lead one before the other after.
 Do you have any examples of USFS, BLM etc. land  being developed into anything other than ski areas? or mismanaged resources?

And after the miners, loggers, and developers have their way we will have no wildlife to worry about, or habitat to enjoy.  I tend to lean towards more regulation on our public land because a few people getting rich at our expense (or that of our lands) does not interest me. 

[logger]

who getting rich, more regulation, are you serious

[wolfbait]

  And after it's all said and done you learn that the sierra club, wilderness society, and defenders of wildlife are the same people. That's right.... USFWS and DOW  share a common leader. Lead one before the other after.
 Do you have any examples of USFS, BLM etc. land  being developed into anything other than ski areas? or mismanaged resources?

And after the miners, loggers, and developers have their way we will have no wildlife to worry about, or habitat to enjoy.  I tend to lean towards more regulation on our public land because a few people getting rich at our expense (or that of our lands) does not interest me. 

WC, If you look where the wolves have been you will see that wildlife is not of any concern. This is nothing more the meetings such as the wolf meetings we had, they can say that there was public review and then carry on with the land grab. Remember this is just the beginning, more land locked, no hunting, No fishing, No anything, all in the name of the lie conservation.

[Elkaholic daWg]

who getting rich, more regulation, are you serious

 I think he is, and I saw no comment regarding protecting all that area around North Cascades NP from hunters either.


The Far Left always ends up ruling by force. Their policies are so opposed to human nature and common sense, that they have no alternative but to use force to implement their social engineering plans, and remain in power

[haus]

The meeting dates and locations are on the first page of the website.

This could be a good thing and might help protect our public land from mismanagement and from development or poorly managed resource extraction.   It doesn't appear to be a threat to hunting.

Oh absolutely I agree, this initiative is totally genuine! I mean obviously because it says nothing about hunting. and your damn right about the mismanagement of extracting our natural resources and protecting our lands from development. I'm glad someone has taken the lead on protecting our public lands and has drawn up an initiative to get America's youth interested in the outdoors again...talk about genuine!!!






















  sarcasm off....
I think I just threw up in my mouth a lil' bit. 
Someone get the koolaid out of WC's hands before he finishes the glass off

[WAcoyotehunter]

Park the sarcasm and tell me how mining, poor logging practices, oil well leases, and overgrazing on public land helping our hunting heritage? 

Here is the opening line from the Video on the website posted by BBarnes.

Each one of us seeks the outdoors for many reasons; to relax, to play, to hunt and fish, to exercise, to learn; to spend time with our family, to be refreshed and even inspired

[haus]

Park the sarcasm and tell me how mining, poor logging practices, oil well leases, and overgrazing on public land helping our hunting heritage?  

Here is the opening line from the Video on the website posted by BBarnes.

Each one of us seeks the outdoors for many reasons; to relax, to play, to hunt and fish, to exercise, to learn; to spend time with our family, to be refreshed and even inspired

Tell me how crushing natural resource activity on our public lands in the mid 90's worked out for our rural communittee's? Do you know what happened to communittee's like Morton or Aberdeen? Did you witness any of this? Do you feel any of it was justified? Do you recall what our national forests looked like and how wildlife populations were doing prior to the mid 1990s during these 'poor logging practice' years? Yes I previously saw the words you so clearly highlighted in red, but thanks again for pointing them out, and again I'll say 'because it says nothing about hunting!' Because it says nothing about everything! WC this is political fluff, it warms the heart and speaks volumes to liberal minds. I applaud the president for his tactics, he knows his supporters thats for sure.


Regardless, I'll be at the meeting, but I wont be thirsty  

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm glad to hear that you'll be there.  Hopefully this will turn into something beneficial to wildlife and the places we enjoy and will be a step towards the stated goal of getting people out and enjoying nature and the outdoors.

I can see what is happening in the forests now, with degraded stream conditions/water quality due to overgrazing, poor logging practices and roads.  I can also see horrible weed infestations caused by increased traffic and logging.  It's plain to see that we're taking a toll on the resource.  I don't mind logging, and I love beef; but that land belongs to all of us and we should take better care of it.   

[CastleRocker]

  And after it's all said and done you learn that the sierra club, wilderness society, and defenders of wildlife are the same people. That's right.... USFWS and DOW  share a common leader. Lead one before the other after.
 Do you have any examples of USFS, BLM etc. land  being developed into anything other than ski areas? or mismanaged resources?

And after the miners, loggers, and developers have their way we will have no wildlife to worry about, or habitat to enjoy.  I tend to lean towards more regulation on our public land because a few people getting rich at our expense (or that of our lands) does not interest me. 

Did you just put "loggers" in the same category as "miners, and developers"?  Please tell me you didn't!  Oh brother!  I could spend the rest of my afternoon typing to explain how it was the loggers who INVENTED reforestation!  Why did they come up with such a thing?  Oh, I guess it was only to make more money from the use of the same land.  (That's why trees are called a "renewable resource"). 

However, once a parcel is mined, there is NO WAY to replant the land and have it grow new minerals. 

I'm done typing.  Too many years humped over a chainsaw have diminished my typing skills, and my hands are now asleep.  Next time you can wipe your ass with a Spotted Owl, or better yet; save the planet by using "virtual toilet paper".  I read about it on the internet; it must be true.
Also, once the land is chopped up and there is a housing development on it, there is no way to undo it, undeveloped it and do it again.  Do you live in a housing development by any chance?

It sounds like "we" should really show up.  If for no other reason, than to educate away some ignorance.

Please don't combine all the different user groups into one.  They are NOT the same.  The problem starts when people who don't know any better, read the "loggers, miners, and developers" all lumped into one and believe it.  It's comes under that "I saw it on the internet; it must be real"!

[WAcoyotehunter]

You have a pretty good point, there is a difference in mining and logging.  Hopefully you'll notice that I mention "poor logging practices" which, to me, means building roads all over hell and gone (major contributor to erosion, traffic, weed spreading...) and exposing mineral soils on slopes, which causes much of the same problems.  I didn't intend to offend the loggers, but let's face it- much of our timberlands have been beat up pretty bad.   

Reforestation plantings are well and good.  It would be better if they would require reseeding grasses and forbes as well to help encourage native plant establishment after a harvest. 

[haus]

I'm glad to hear that you'll be there.  Hopefully this will turn into something beneficial to wildlife and the places we enjoy and will be a step towards the stated goal of getting people out and enjoying nature and the outdoors.

I can see what is happening in the forests now, with degraded stream conditions/water quality due to overgrazing, poor logging practices and roads.  I can also see horrible weed infestations caused by increased traffic and logging.  It's plain to see that we're taking a toll on the resource.  I don't mind logging, and I love beef; but that land belongs to all of us and we should take better care of it.   

Yes when you are logging, driving a vehicle, grazing cattle, and maintaining roads there is a noticeable footprint left behind. So? Whats wrong with that? It sounds like your saying we shouldn't do these at all because of the negative results? Now instead of profitable land that sustains local economies we replace it with land that debts taxpayers?  How do we diversify the habitat without profitable natural resource businesses like logging and ranching? Well the government is going to hire people to care for the habitat!  So we're going rob Peter in order to pay Paul? Nice solution.   

just as a reference, this is the current timber harvest. So I don't know where all of this evil logging is being conducted on federal land, I don't see it in the stats and I haven't seen it when I've been in our NF's.

Gifford Pinchot National Forest
Total Size - 1.37 million acres
fiscal year 2009. October 1, 2008 - September 30, 2009:
Total Timber Harvest: 21.2 mbf

Mt. Baker - Snoqualmie National Forest
Total Size - 1.72 million acres
Fiscal Year 2007
Total Timber Harvest: 12.7 mbf

What we need is moderation where all forms of outdoor recreation and natural resource harvest share the land at managed levels of use that limits the negative aspects and maximizes the positive aspects of our activities. Our presence doesn't cause the environment to automatically suffer, there are rewards. It seems your solely focused on the negative impact, much like environmentalists. Man isn't bad you know, there is nothing wrong with harvesting from our land. It's a matter of how we conduct that harvest.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I agree that we can make a sustainable harvest without destroying our wildlands, that's kind of what I've been saying.  We need to do things better, and efforts like the one BBarnes posted here are not necessarily bad things.  they might actually make a difference for the better... I guess I am willing to pay a little more for lumber to have healthy forests and cover the costs of weed control, road obliteration, proper road construction, gates...whatever.

IMO- what we should do is reseed and obliterate unnecessary roads, reseed and 'fix up' logged areas, not put roads adjacent to streams, fence stream banks and allow cattle only in hardened water areas, spray weeds and encourage weed free hay/feed.  Things could be different without them being worse.

Ranchers and loggers should be welcome on public land, as long as they pay the true cost of business.  That will likely include some habitat work.  Just like mines should reclaim the land when they leave a site...

[logger]

Loggers do pay the true cost, when dealing with the gov. you can't help but pay.The forest service dosen't manage anything anymore. Your right it does need to be wise manegement but also wise multiple use.I live eat and breath this stuff everyday and what is reported in the media is not always acurate.

[wolfbait]

I think in order to get any responsible management there needs to be some people in those departments who haven't leaned everything they know out of a book! Take the USFS who dictate how you will log and apply the restrictions written up by someone who has never logged, knows zippo. Example: clear cuts to manage for diseases while leaving a wildlife area in the middle that is full of what they are logging to get rid of. Logging the same area every two or three years. Logging using the selective cut prescriptions instead of clear cuts with special areas for treatment of diseases would be a great improvement. I have seen areas we logged this way thirty years ago and you would never know it was logged, no eye sore what so ever. Before the Spotted owl, logging was used to thin the forest now the so called "controlled burns" leave waste and more fuel in many areas than before they tried to treat it. Jobs lost, school money lost, all of it going up in flame. New management is needed!

Range Management now has come along way since the old days, now springs are fenced off, cattle are moved on schedule. Cattle actually improve wildlife habitat, take deer, cows will eat on the old bitter brush which promotes new growth for the deer herds. Cows that are ranged in elk country will eat the old grass which in turn promote new grass, in a study conducted in Montana it showed the elk were following the cattle. Ranchers own a lot of land in the valleys where they raise hay for their cattle, much of their land is teaming with deer and elk. If the Ranchers loose their grazing permits, then they no longer can raise cows, therefore they will have to sell the home place, breaking it up into more development.

Think of all the jobs lost with the public lands closed. The carrot that tourism will make up the loss is total BS.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Range Management now has come along way since the old days, now springs are fenced off, cattle are moved on schedule. Cattle actually improve wildlife habitat, take deer, cows will eat on the old bitter brush which promotes new growth for the deer herds. Cows that are ranged in elk country will eat the old grass which in turn promote new grass, in a study conducted in Montana it showed the elk were following the cattle. Ranchers own a lot of land in the valleys where they raise hay for their cattle, much of their land is teaming with deer and elk. If the Ranchers loose their grazing permits, then they no longer can raise cows, therefore they will have to sell the home place, breaking it up into more development.

Think of all the jobs lost with the public lands closed. The carrot that tourism will make up the loss is total BS.

That's a good point, and I agree- cattle can be used as a tool.  Proper use is the key to all of the management decisions. 

I also agree that the tourism stuff is a joke....

[haus]

I agree that we can make a sustainable harvest without destroying our wildlands, that's kind of what I've been saying.  We need to do things better, and efforts like the one BBarnes posted here are not necessarily bad things.  they might actually make a difference for the better... I guess I am willing to pay a little more for lumber to have healthy forests and cover the costs of weed control, road obliteration, proper road construction, gates...whatever.

IMO- what we should do is reseed and obliterate unnecessary roads, reseed and 'fix up' logged areas, not put roads adjacent to streams, fence stream banks and allow cattle only in hardened water areas, spray weeds and encourage weed free hay/feed.  Things could be different without them being worse.

Ranchers and loggers should be welcome on public land, as long as they pay the true cost of business.  That will likely include some habitat work.  Just like mines should reclaim the land when they leave a site...

While the idea is promising, when applied to the political realities of our society it is a risky proposition for loggers and ranchers to embrace, though it's better than nothing at all. The establishment of these expenses could easily be used to push ranchers and loggers off of public land by forcing up the cost of doing business. It all comes down to who's controlling and deciding what the 'true cost of business' really is. Environmentalists and liberals could lobby to increase the taxation, they've used such methods in the past. Specifically against forms of outdoor recreation they're opposed to, such as atv'ing/motorcycling and snowmobiling. Their well aware that working class American's are easily deterred from these activities when facing rising federal/state fee's and greater restrictions. Though concurrently it has bit them in the ass at times when government agencies become dependent upon the income being generated from the fee's, which causes the agencies to ensure no actions are taken that would deter participation.

This scenario plays out in our WDFW too. We generate a massive amount of income that flows through our  through enjoying our tradition to hunt. I realize that we often belly ache about the increasing fee's we have to pay to the WDFW, but we need to remind ourselves that money talks. When we pay more we are also increasing the governments dependency upon us, we are increasing our value. All that is left to do is for us to capitalize on our value.

It really isn't too complex or difficult to protect our tradition because of the value we bring by enjoying it, the hard part is getting us all lumped together so that we become one voice. 







....Bearpaw should add 'Professional Cat Herder' to his resume 

[Special T]

Often time business reacts as a direct result of government interference... Take the spottel owl issue for example... At the time many acres that were unaffected by the spotted owls were logged prematurely before the complete cycle of clearcut to mature timber was compleated.... Why was it done? Because private landowners and loggers are evil? No because many people decided it was better to have half a loaf than none at all... Many felt that if they didn't log off early they might never get the chance.... I think it is much easier to steer private industry than most think... Take for example all the tax breaks that end in December.... Many business will try extra hard to maximize their taxable revenue this year... Why would a business want to pay more taxes this year? Because taxes are taking a huge jump next year.....   If you follow the money and who gets what why you normally get the proper answer.... We seldom get the intended outcome from our state Gov because they are not rational/understand basic business and economics... 

[Elkaholic daWg]

Environmentalists and liberals could lobby to increase the taxation, they've used such methods in the past. Specifically against forms of outdoor recreation they're opposed to, such as atv'ing/motorcycling and snowmobiling.

....Bearpaw should add 'Professional Cat Herder' to his resume  

 Sorry, forgot this part





 Yes they do! and as I before stated, they (DOW, wilderness society, sierra club) all are basically the same people.  They will use you when they need you, until they don't  (need you)and you are their next target. Still haven't seen a comment about how their types would love to increase the size of NCNP, locking hunters out of more area WC. Also remember bbarnes starting a thread about stopping Mount St Helens
from becoming a National Park which would do the same if it happened.

[wolfbait]

Lets not forget about the American Alps Legacy Project envisions a bigger, better national park,The American Alps project would protect critical watershed landscape features; extend wildlife corridors and non-motorized recreation opportunities. The environmentalists pick these wolves to gain control of the land with rulings through the ESA. They have done it with the spotted owl, the salmon, and the list goes on. NOTE: The area being studied for more protection includes land on both sides of Highway 20 just a few miles past Mazama.
 


http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/706/Its_time_to_reclaim_our_rights.html

It's time to reclaim our rights - by Dean Finch - Environment & Climate News

Environment & Climate News > January 2002
Email a Friend
Written By: Dean Finch
Published In: Environment & Climate News > January 2002
Publication date: 01/01/2002
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again, the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has proven itself to be subservient to radical environmental groups, stopping the salvage of dead and dying trees in northern Idaho and eastern Washington.

Bark beetle and tussock moth infestations, in epidemic proportions, have invaded prime timber. It would be logical to salvage those valuable trees, but radicals have sued the U.S. Forest Service preventing that from happening--preferring, apparently, to allow a valuable resource to rot in the forest.

By the time the Forest Service can get the court stay lifted, the trees will likely be useless.

Time after time, the anti-logging environmentalists act in ways that guarantee a valuable resource--one that would provide jobs and stability to a local economy--goes unused, eventually contributing to the long-term fire hazard in our forests. They have one goal in mind: to stop all human use of the Earth's natural resources.

For the most part, the media swallow the environmentalists' line without checking the facts. More often than not, there are few to be found. Scare tactics, half-truths, biased computer models, and "feel good" statements for the public are the tools of the environmentalists' trade.


Managing resources makes sense

The Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and state forestry and range personnel try to make some sense of managing our valuable forest and range resources. But they have little hope of success until the Endangered Species Act and EPA regulations can be rewritten to permit sensible, professional management of forests, rangelands, and waterways.

The radical environmentalists use the spotted owl to stop timber harvests, and bull trout and salmon to close down entire forest regions. Salmon and suckers are now being used to take away long-established water rights. Wolves and grizzly bears can shut down ranching and close remote areas to use by man. When challenged, the radical environmentalists appeal to the federal appellate court most likely to respond in their favor.

In southern Oregon, the radical environmentalists are about to succeed in their goal of removing farmers and ranchers from the Klamath Basin. In the name of suckers and salmon, the environmentalists succeeded in diverting much-needed irrigation water away from the Klamath Basin humans. If the environmentalists hold true to past patterns of behavior, their next step will be to ask the government to buy out hundreds of farmers and ranchers: the beginning of the end of farming and ranching in the Klamath Basin.


Private property under siege

Ownership of private property--and the right to use that property--has been essential to the American way of life since the country's founding. Now socialists, under the guise of environmentalism, are using ESA and EPA regulations to drive private property owners from their land.

The Conservation and Reinvestment Act (CARA) is a key part of the socialist-environmentalist agenda in the U.S. CARA would give the radical environmentalists hundreds of millions of dollars with which to drive private landholders from their property. Passage of CARA in its present form, granting condemnation powers to the environmentalists and to out-of-control federal agencies, would be a disaster to landholders in the West.

The large dams on the Snake and Boise rivers are next on their hit list. The environmentalists have the ability, through the federal courts, to shut down Snake River transportation, irrigation, and electrical projects, just as they have shut down most of the area's logging and mining.

These dams all come up for re-licensing in the next 10 years. The radical environmentalists have already begun their attack, by demanding major changes in the dams' operation and, in some cases, demanding their total removal from the rivers. Even the mighty Columbia River power dams are not safe from environmentalist lawsuits and the Ninth Circuit appellate court.

It's high time elected officials revise and make some sense of the ESA and EPA rules and regulations. Science, not rhetoric, should guide our management of rivers, forests, and rangeland. Man should have equal status with fish, birds, animals, and plants. Time is running out.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dean Finch is a retired professional forester.

[wolfbait]

Many people are going to find out that through the wolves, the control over land uses will affect their fun in the outdoors. The land control is not just about hunters and wildlife, and it's a shame it is taken so long for people to realize this. People have been so busy concentrating on the poor wolf that they did not take the time to pull the wrapping back and see what is really in the whole package. The environmentalists and those who wish to take public lands away from the people are making their move now, because before to long the wolves are going to ruin their plans by doing what wolves do, Kill anything and everything, public tide will turn against the wolves and those who have agendas will have lost their shot.

[haus]

check this goodie out, this is the kind of bill that the 'GREAT OUTDOORS INITIATIVE' is running smoke screen for.

http://holt.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=425

I'm sure you'll be all giddy about that one WC  

1. Take a look at the title "Holt Introduced Bill to Protect Wildlife Corridors: Corridors Vital to Hunting, Wildlife Industries - BULL ****!  

2. Scroll down to the bottom, look at the list of groups endorsing the bill. Every elite environmentalist group in the country! Those fkrs have sued government agencies so damn many times and made of with millions of tax payer dollars, just one of many tactics they use to get their way. They have been attacking our tradition to hunt for decades and now they want to be friends? **** off!!!   I know a steaming pile of *censored* when I see it!

It's really Divide and Conquer politics....... First you drum up this Great Outdoors Initiative to get environmental groups to work with outdoorsmen and multi-use groups like the AMA, you sell it as being a way to reconnect America to the outdoors, you make it sound as neutral and equitable as possible.......everyone jumps on the band wagon, then you slip in the environmental bills. This one in particular, guess who the target is.......the natural resource industries. What do you think will happen to private property rights inside these corridors? What do you think will happen to ranches, farms, and private timber lands inside these corridors? In turn what do you think will happen to our rural communittee's that are caught inside of these corridors? As if they haven't been beaten into a pulp already.

Once this is complete who do you think is next?

Screw them!  

[wolfbait]

GOOD JOB HAUS! Kind of brings things out in the open, don't need a spottin scope to see where things are head now, eh.  We need to turn the wolves around and head them back to Canada and then send the folks behind the wolves a one way ticket to Hell. We won't be needing any Wildlife Corridors when the wolves get done, we will be needing some wolf fencing around schools etc.

[haus]

The only way we're stopping this is through the elections, I hope to god it gets drug out until then. This bill has to be stopped! Environmentalists have been working towards this for 20+ years, this bill is a culmination of everything they want. It lays the foundation for a whole host of *censored*. They'll be able to take the ESA into these corridors and shove it right up every property owners hoo-haa!

Not withstanding the cost, we're already dealing wth a crap economy, this bit of legislation is going to cost tax payers millions, and the job loss 

[Elkaholic daWg]

  Right on! We in my district need to put Mr Larsen out of a job,and do the same with  the others that would support this garbage.  Hopefully former rep. (and resources committee chair) Richard Pombo gets elected back  (a rancher)to congress in central Ca.
  Ain't it great how those in New Jersey, and New York , and DC think they know what life is all about in the west?

[haus]

And another thing.....this bill is Obama's, don't kid yourself into thinking U.S. Rep. Rush Holt(NJ) drummed this bill up on his own.

Game plan:
Obama's out rah-rah'ing his Great Outdoors Initiative, motivating the people, sounding all inclusive, embracing everyone from environmentalists to loggers, rallying us to get young American's excited about outdoor recreation, looking like Abraham himself.  To some people anyway....

Holt introduces the bill, any negative press, any heat from the public is launched entirely at House reps. Obama wont say a damn thing about this bill unless it gains a ton of momentum, he'll only chime in to give the bill a little nudge to make it through a final vote. If this bill suffers and falls off it wont phase Obama, but I guarrantee that he'll be leading the charge to secure a majority vote if need be. Though he prefers to sit back and provide occassional lift when he see's fit.

This is how he goes about his business, this was a known fact long before he was elected president, I'm not saying its wrong by any means. I'm just pointing out whats really going on and how the two are directly connected.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm sure you'll be all giddy about that one WC 

In general, I support efforts to protect large contigous blocks of habitat, because I understand how important those places are to wildlife and to the life needs of many species (sage grouse, griz, wolverine...).  Without habitat we do not have hunting.

Here is some text from the Holt legislation-

The Wildlife Corridors Conservation Act would create a national wildlife corridors information program within the Fish and Wildlife Service to collect and disseminate information about essential movement paths to states and federal agencies. It would establish a Wildlife Corridors Stewardship and Protection Fund to provide grants to federal agencies, states, local governments, nonprofits, and corporations for the management and protection of essential wildlife corridors. Finally, it would require the Department of Agriculture, Department of the Interior and the Department of Transportation to consider the preservation of these migration paths in their management plans.

Are you really so paranoid that you're against legislation to require a closer look at project effects on habitat?  really? 

[Elkaholic daWg]

  How do you suppose he plans on protecting it? By what means?  I know..old news


 Like this maybe........ From BCR

http://www.backcountryrebels.com/showthread.php?t=8424





Here's something I found from March.


Welcome to The Clark Fork Chronicle

Rehberg introduces legislation to stop 'land-grab'

Thursday, March 04 2010 @ 01:38 PM MST


WASHINGTON, D.C. – Montana Rep. Denny Rehberg today introduced legislation that would exempt the State of Montana from the provisions of the Antiquities Act, which allows the President to circumvent public opposition and congressional oversight to designate land as a National Monument. The introduction comes after the discovery of an internal memo from the U.S. Department of Interior, which outlined plans to misuse the Antiquities Act to designate 13 million acres in 11 Western States. This figure includes 2.5 million acres in Montana.
“For more than a century, the Antiquities Act has served a valuable function in the preservation of America’s natural treasures, making it all the more tragic that it’s now being misused for a 13 million-acre land-grab,” said Rehberg, a member of the House Western Caucus. “When it comes to land in Montana, we’ve got a long-standing tradition of working together to find consensus-based solutions. Circumventing that tradition by unilaterally carving out millions of acres with the stroke of a pen is not the American way. The President is not a king, and we are not his subjects, which is why congressional checks and balances are so important.”

Rehberg, who recently sent a letter to Interior Secretary Salazar demanding details on the proposals, introduced H.R. 4754, which requires congressional approval of new National Monument designations in Montana. This requirement isn’t unprecedented; the current law prohibits the extension or establishment of any National Monument in Wyoming without the express authorization of Congress.

“This isn’t about undermining a good law,” said Rehberg. “It’s about preventing a good law from being abused. It’s about ensuring Montanans are heard and preventing a bureaucratic overreach. It’s about making sure that we aren’t rendered landless in our own state because a big-city politician thought it would be fun to shut us out of our land.”

The Department of Interior Memo can be found at http://robbishop.house.gov/UploadedFi...nation.pdf

http://www.clarkforkchronicle.com/ar...00304133818997

Here's a comment re: Clinton by Rehberg

“The Clinton Administration invented the abuse of the Antiquities Act with the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument and the Obama Administration seems intent on perfecting it,” said Rehberg.

http://rightmontana.com/dennyrehberg/2010/06/24/3739/
__________________

[wolfbait]

Great research Elk-D! Check this out, many people don't want to look the future in the eye, but unless you become involve this will be the future. This is the reason for the wolves.

http://takingliberty.us/Narrations/FuturePlans/player.html

http://takingliberty.us/Narrations/gap/player.html

[haus]

I'm sure you'll be all giddy about that one WC  

Are you really so paranoid that you're against legislation to require a closer look at project effects on habitat?  really?  

awwww.  
Yeah totally bro, completely paranoid. habitat studies are bad!!!!   There's a little more to it.

What we want for wildlife management is probably about 90% of the same thing WC, its a matter of how we go about doing it, and this Act is not how we should go about wildlife conservation. The emphasis behind this type of legislation places the burden of our past mistakes upon our rural communittee's. Just because we want to right our wrongs does not mean that we need to burden our whole economy and increase federal regulation on private property owners, all in the name of nature. I would recommend that you read into the history of the Wildlife Corridors theory a little further and try to put yourself in the shoes of different groups of people and look at how this will affect them, and take a look at the architects of this theory and examine the many attachments that are intended to be added to this type of platform. If I only cared about my hunting rights and only cared about having more area to hunt and my family and friends only lived in urban areas then I might be more supportive of this program, but I'm just not that selfish.

some items from your RED paragraph:
1. Cost. Where are we going to get the money? The Feds' broke! Right now Obama's pulling it out of Chinamans' bum, as was the previous president. The Federal Government can't even afford to maintain basic access points to our National Forests. How in the hell are they going to manage this 'Wildlife Corridors' expansion correctly if they can't even afford to manage what they already own?

2. 'essential movement paths'....read: RED TAPE. It's good in theory but the result of any federal line being drawn in the name of environmental protection usually equates to more bureaucratic red tape for recreationalists, rural businesses and private property owners. Another things that usually tag along are increased costs, access losses, and increased regulation. This discourages recreationalists and it disrupts businessess, which damages the economy. Add this together with the increased federal spending and you have a huge debt to all of us. Our land should not be a debt to American tax payers.

What I would like to see instead:
Five subjects need to be emphasized and valued equally in any bill, act, or decision that trys to promote this theory of wildlife corridors; economic benefit, habitat growth and improvement, public participation through recreation and business, rural community protection, and wildlife management.

Lastly, a wildlife corridors initiative should clearly define federal control, and it had better be very limited. The effort should be placed on the shoulders of our states, our local communittee's, and our NGO's. We know our home, we know our land, we know our state, the fed doesn't. We can do better.

Maybe this bill will be beat around by congress until these things are all treated equally, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Little Dave]

The intentions in that paragraph at face value are good.  The intentions boil down to let's do stuff to help wildlife.  Nothing wrong with that.

It's not sustainable.  Depends on taxes.  Looks like it creates volumes of new yet redundant information at great expense.  Perhaps a new redundant zoning agency... then of course a follow up act would be needed to really do the work because this first one only ended up paying for greens fees, boats, and vacation condos in Florida... not to mention a congressman from Connecticut might ask for federal funds to create a yarn museum in his district in exchange for the yes vote.

Most people pay more to the federal government with some degree of hope that it will come back, like the wine museum over in the Yakima Valley, wow they're dancing in the streets over there in Prosser.  Any way you look at that it is wealth redistribution.  When you see "grants for non-profits" wave at your money as it goes to some legislator's buddy on the East Coast.  It will go for greens fees, boats, and vacation condos in Florida, usual stuff like that.  You probably pay about twice as much in taxes at the federal level than for state, but you get one third the representation.  Most people wouldn't invest their savings that way.

Keep your money local, and your politicians on a short leash.

[wolfbait]

Land Use Control Tutorial
http://sovereignty.net/p/land/landusetutorial.htm

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Citizens for Balanced Use
Baucus co-sponsors S2747
Dear Jim,
 
The environmental groups that attended the Great American Outdoors and Treasured Landscape Initiative meetings in Montana want nothing more than to have the Land and Water Conservation Fund fully funded. This message was heard loud and clear at these meetings and they are putting pressure on congress to achieve this goal.

The LWCF does nothing more than give huge amounts of money to green organizations to harass land owners into selling there land. They will then transfer ownership of these lands to the government to be locked away from the public all in the so-called name of preservation.

Senator Baucus has just signed on as a co-sponsor of S2747 which will fund these government land grabs to the tune of 450 million per year in perpetuity. Check out the sponsors of this bill.

S 2747

Please contact Senator Baucus and explain to him why we don't need or want the LWCF funded and why more government control of land in Montana is bad for our local economies. Ask him to stop the attacks from government on private property rights.
 
Article Headline
Don't forget to mark your calendar to attend the meeting in
 Malta on September 16th.
BLM Director Robert Abbey will be at the
Malta High School at 7pm to discuss the new proposed
2.5 million acre National Monument.

Kerry White
Citizens for Balanced Use
1-406-600-4CBU

[Elkaholic daWg]

 More wonderful news..................


http://www.takingliberty.us/TLHome.html

[Elkaholic daWg]

  From the "enemy"


Time is running out to participate in our campaign for America's Great Outdoors. It's easy to send a quick email to the Obama Administration asking that conservation for the 21st century include wilderness and wildlife protection. Click here to take action now, or read on for more info.

—Kathy

Dear Jim,

Tell President Obama:  Protect our wilderness, public lands and natural heritage!

America's great outdoors … what do you think should be preserved for future generations? What should our conservation priorities be for the 21st century?

America's Great Outdoors is an unprecedented conservation effort spearheaded by President Obama and several government agencies to reconnect people with nature. The Obama administration wants your input to create this blueprint for the future of conservation in America, and members of his cabinet have been traveling around the country this summer listening to our ideas about conservation.

Please tell the Obama Administration to make wilderness, new parks and monuments, and restoration of wetlands and wildlife habitat the cornerstone of America's Great Outdoors.

Why speak out now? New and growing threats -- overdevelopment, pollution and a changing climate -- demand a smarter, science-based approach to protecting wild areas, wildlife, rivers and lakes and cultural and historic sites that connect us to nature, to each other and to our shared past.

Thousands of Americans have spoken out as part of the America's Great Outdoors Initiative this summer in preparation for a major administration report this fall.

Now it's your turn to be heard.

All summer long, The Wilderness Society has been organizing people to turn out to listening sessions with officials, delivering messages face-to-face about special places, like Otero Mesa in New Mexico, San Gabriel Mountains in California, the North Cascades in Washington. We've pushed for new wilderness protections in Tennessee, West Virginia, and Maine.

We've also delivered specific policy recommendations that will lead to long term protection of our lands and water, including:

    * Protect more wilderness
    * Establish more national parks and monuments
    * Keep our forests healthy
    * Protect and restore wildlife habitat and wetlands
    * Improve opportunities for outdoor recreation

Please act now, to ensure that public lands protection is the center of America's conservation vision.

Each generation has the opportunity –- the responsibility -- to protect our natural heritage for the next generation. Thank you for all you do for America's wilderness and public lands!

Best regards,
Kathy Kilmer