great hunt gone bad

[ffhoofer]

hello all. i'm new to this site but thought i would share my hunt from this weekend. saturday started off not seeing or hearing anything till about mid day when i heard a bull bugle from across a canyon. i cow called back but didn't get a reply. about 45 min. later i hear footprints coming up the hill directly in front of me. i couldn't believe my eyes when i see a nice bull walking directly to me about thirty yards away. the bull gets about fifteen yards from me and turns broadside. i fire my muzzleloader (50 cal TC, shooting 300gr powerbelts w/ 110gr. pyrodex) and the bull stiffens his front shoulder and runs down the canyon. at this point i'm 100% sure of the shot and reload while i wait for him to expire. i give him 15 minutes and walk towards where i shot. as i get to the point where i shot i see no blood, i begin down the trail about 10 yards and can see the bull bedded 175-200 yards away. at this point i can see his is still alive but seems to be hurt bad so i give him time. i watch him for a 1-1/2 hours until he gets up and walks uphill away from my with a stiff front left shoulder. he walks to the point where i can't see him anymore. i slowly walk to where he was bedded to look for blood. no blood on the trail or where he was bedded! while i was looking he jumps up out of another bed 100 yards away but offers no shot. i slowly back out of there and gave him 4 hours until i return. i return and find nothing. i spent the rest of saturday and yesterday looking but nothing! i can't believe it. at fifteen yards i was for sure i would get great penetration. any thoughts of what went wrong???

[whacker1]

It sounds like you hit him in the shoulder and may not have penetrated through the shoulder.  I have seen it with high power rifles let alone muzzleloaders.  sorry to hear that it went south.   

[bobcat]

I wouldn't trust a Powerbelt to penetrate an elk's shoulder. They are too soft. Good deer bullet but not necessarily a good elk bullet. If you do use Powerbelts for elk, use the heaviest available. Were you shooting the 295 grain bullet? If so, that is awful light for a muzzleloader bullet.

[ffhoofer]

yes, it was 295gr. this was the first year i tried them to get better range. Kid at works sports said 295gr. would be more then enough. i should've stuck with the 350gr. maxi-hunters i was using.

[Lowedog]

It sounds like you hit him in the shoulder and may not have penetrated through the shoulder.  I have seen it with high power rifles let alone muzzleloaders.  sorry to hear that it went south.   

  I have seen the same thing.  An all lead bullet more than likely pancaked on the shoulder blade.  A friend of mine shot a big bull several years ago at short range with his 7mm mag.  Same scenario.  He ended up tracking that bull for 3 days and put 3 or 4 more shots into his shoulder before finally anchoring him.  When boning that bull out for the pack we found I think 3 bullets pancaked on the shoulder blade.  He was shooting Remington Core lokts.  He was lucky that it was a late hunt and he had snow to be able to stay on his bull. 

[J Snow73]

My father-in-law had a similar expierience yesterday. Shot at a elk 50 yds away, BOOM and it just stood there no expression and walked in the woods. Took a shot at a target at about the same distance and dead on We followed it up where it went in the bush until to dark to see and there up looking again today He was also using 295 at 100 grain loose FF. I am rethinking the whole elk/muzzleloader tactics. Just seems u would get some kind of reaction from the animal after being hit with this. I'll let you know when i hear from them what they find

[ffhoofer]

yes, it's a bum deal. well... if anybody finds a 5x5 with a bum shoulder in unit 454 let me know. i would like to know what happened to him.

[J Snow73]

Ya same here 454 elk must wear flak jackets, I'm off to buy bigger bullets and a target

[Lowedog]

You might think about going with a Barnes or similar bullet. 

[whacker1]

I am shooting the Barnes 275 grain in my .54.  I bought a bunch of the 325 grain, but didn't get them sighted in.  I need to find an bull to shoot them into anyway, which I wasn't able to find over the weekend.

[carpsniperg2]

sorry to hear that. powerbelts are known for pancaking and not penetrating threw tuffer bone. i did a lot of tests on them back when i first started and then when they switched to copper i shot some of the copper ones. i was still not impressed, i use the Barnes and they are a very tuff bullet. i would really think about switching bullets.

[Curly]

That's too bad that you didn't recover that bull.    Thanks for sharing your story so that more people will realize the limitations of those bullets.  Hopefully others will learn from your story.

I shot a 2 point blacktail buck a few years ago with a powerbelt at 90 yards.  He was standing broadside and I hit him behind the shoulder.  The bullet did not hit any bone.  I found the bullet pancaked just under the off-side hide.  Sure I had a dead deer and the bullet worked great in that instance, but I knew right then that I would not want to use the hollow point Powerbelt for elk.  There are better bullets out there, especially now that we can use jacketed bullets.

[WSU]

Go big on the muzzy bullets!  I saw a bull shot with a 405 grain power belt this weekend.  Sharp quartering away shot, the bullet entered just forward of the hind quarter and exited in the front of the chest.  Also found another one in the elk's cavity (same shooter), and it was pretty well pancaked.  Found some 385 grainers I shot into a bull last year, and they were pancaked in the off-side hide.  I am really hoping to find some heavier jacketed bullets to use in the future.  Anyone have recommendations?

Also, bummer on the bull. Hopefully he will be OK.  A lot of time with a muzzy you don't get an exit wound, which results in very small to nearly non-existance blood trails.  The bull I shot last year had 2 holes in him from 2 shots, and zero blood trail. 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Elk can be tough critters. If you're not seeing blood, I bet he lives if that bullet is flattened on the shoulder blade.

I've killed two deer that had bullets lodged in muscle/bone from previous seasons. One, had passed through both hauches and lodged on the inside of the opposite side hide. I don't know how he didn't die of infection. The bullet path wasn't quite straight, but passed through the hide, meat, grazed the femor, anal canal/pelvis, hip bone, more meat/muscle and stopped at the hide. (hunter's shot must have been from down hill of him)  Anyway.. That buck was quite healthy when I dropped him.

A strong bull might be able to survive your shot too.  Keep huntin that one though. He'll be slow for a while.

-Steve

[ffhoofer]

after reading all the replies i'm definetly switching. i'm puzzled because you would think at fifteen yards you would get better penetration??? hopefully i catch up to him.

[bobcat]

With a soft bullet like the Powerbelt, it's likely that you would get less penetration the closer it is. If you would have hit the bull behind the shoulder, it probably would have worked just fine.

[J Snow73]

 Ya I'm with you too hoofer I would prefer not to be put in that situation again without knowing what i have loaded up will do the job. With the 454 being open for either deer or elk i guess we were prepared more on the deer side and shoulda been the opposite with only 2 days for both i guess lesson learned. I heard from my wife a while ago and they didn't find anything up there and after listening to all the other comments really shed some light on your situation and ours. Thanks for posting what happened with you this weekend cause I was kinda  makes more sense now

[grundy53]

elk are definetly tough i bet he survives.

[JackOfAllTrades]

 

OK, now that he's still huntin this critter, and he's decided to switch lead offerings,  I've got a couple questions.

First, I'll submit http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ for a wealth of people that cast their own bullets for every type of firearm and purpose imagineable.

Then I ask, how much do those precast un/proven lead offerings cost for those front stuffers?  I've been casting bullets for my pistols/competitive pistols for accuracy and performance on wild game. I've taken deer with my concoctions and would present a hard cast bullet on Elk or Bear. -Harder is not always more accurate but there is a range of hardness where as hunters we should be able to get the accuracy and terminal performance we're looking for.

All it takes is a mold, a melting pot, ladel, some lead, antimony and tin and you can cast your own bullets to give the performance you're looking for. Water quenching will harden them even more depending on what alloy you're concocting.

Some would say you can do better than using a jacketed bullet, for the speeds that you're pushing them through a ML.

So why don't any of you cast your own ML bullets?

-Steve

[trophyhunt]

My wife shot a bull at 10 feet with those powerbelts, she also hit the shoulder and we never found that bull either. I don't think you need much more than a 300 grain bullet, but now we can use copper jacketed and next time we shoot behind the shoulder.

[whacker1]

The Barnes solid Copper bullets are roughly $30 for 20 rounds.  Expensive, but performance is what we are looking for.   I thought about casting my own a few years ago, but with how few I shoot each year, it didn't make sense.  I may shoot 15 - 20 per year if I target practice a bunch.  I have only shotten a couple this year.

[bobcat]

Steve, I don't cast my own bullets but I do use hard cast bullets made by Harvester and they're only $10.50 for 20 bullets w/sabots. I'm using the 330 grain but they also offer a 400 grain that would work well in rifles with a faster twist than mine (my Lyman Deerstalker is a 1 in 48 twist.)

[J Snow73]

All it takes is a mold, a melting pot, ladel, some lead, antimony and tin and you can cast your own bullets to give the performance you're looking for. Water quenching will harden them even more depending on what alloy you're concocting.


So why don't any of you cast your own ML bullets?

-Steve

Man you make it sound so easy. Granted after spending umpti$$ and then the learning and trial and error to me personally is way more money and time then the average hunter would consider. My grandfather and father did what you are suggesting ,but I feel that is way more far and in between then it was years ago

[Lowedog]

Barnes 250gr TMZ.  I dug these out of a very hard packed back stop.  Almost 100% weight retention.

[smg id=7832]

[bigbull94]

Lead bullets suck in general.I would recommend going to a good performing copper bullet.The blood trails from a lead hole is almost no existant in my opinion.I have tracked tons of game shot with round balls,sabots,conicals,etc.and everything shot with lead,the blood trails sucked.There was tons of blood in cavities but left little outside.Elk are tough,and I think you hit shoulder as well.If,you hit the upper horizontal bone on shoulder,it could have stopped the bullet.The flat part of shoulder it would have penetrated,soft bullet or not,at close range.He could have a damaged(broken)shoulder but never entered his vitals,and he will be fine!I have seen arrow shafts,broadheads,in weird places and the animal survived,until someone else did them in!If,it was me,I would have sneeked in on him while he was bedded for an hour and a half at 175yds,cut the distance and cap him again,but that is after thought.

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

I killed my bull with a lead bullet but did not pass through. I hit him in the heart but not a major blood trail!

[highside74]

 When I started reading this thread it sounded like my buddies hunt from Sat. He shot a bull at 80 yards with 348 gr lead powerbelts and cartwheeled the bull. High fives all around and then...This bull get's up and walk's off. Shot #2  no response. #3 bull he is headed deep down a whole. He shoot's this bull with all five powerbelts he is carrying and is out of lead. Finally has to finish him with someone else's gun and a jacketed round. During the skinning he got all five round's from that bull and none of them penetrated. All five were turned into blobs of lead. 

[whacker1]

When I started reading this thread it sounded like my buddies hunt from Sat. He shot a bull at 80 yards with 348 gr lead powerbelts and cartwheeled the bull. High fives all around and then...This bull get's up and walk's off. Shot #2  no response. #3 bull he is headed deep down a whole. He shoot's this bull with all five powerbelts he is carrying and is out of lead. Finally has to finish him with someone else's gun and a jacketed round. During the skinning he got all five round's from that bull and none of them penetrated. All five were turned into blobs of lead. 

Did you recover the jacketed round?

[highside74]

When I started reading this thread it sounded like my buddies hunt from Sat. He shot a bull at 80 yards with 348 gr lead powerbelts and cartwheeled the bull. High fives all around and then...This bull get's up and walk's off. Shot #2  no response. #3 bull he is headed deep down a whole. He shoot's this bull with all five powerbelts he is carrying and is out of lead. Finally has to finish him with someone else's gun and a jacketed round. During the skinning he got all five round's from that bull and none of them penetrated. All five were turned into blobs of lead. 

Did you recover the jacketed round?

No...shot him in the head.

[bearpaw]

I have had nothing but bad luck with hunters using all lead projectiles. Jackets are legal now, use them....

A good jacketed bullet will shoot clear through both shoulders of an elk, I have seen it. On the other hand, I have had to cut the throat on live bear that were wounded by multiple lead projectiles and I have watched many animals jump up and run off to never be seen again from lead bullets.

THose Barnes are a godsend too.....

[bearpaw]

you do not want to hear all the horror stories of all lead projectiles, espeacially round balls....

[h2ofowlr]

I shot the 295 grain hollow point pure lead ones at a mule deer.  I shot it twice and the two rounds never made it through the other side.  All I could find was little pieces.  I won't use them again.  They exploded inside the deer and I had to pick all the lead out.

[ing]

I've shot two elk with 295 gr Power Belts and 100 gr of Pyrodex pellets they seemed to kill them just fine. Both times the bullet stopped on the opposite side just under the hide.  I shot a spike on saturday with a saboted 300 gr Hornady XTP with 100 gr of Pyrodex pellets and he only went about 30 or 40 yards and dropped dead.  In one shoulder, through the heart and out the other side. I'll continue to use this load in the future

[Whitelightning]

OK, now that he's still huntin this critter, and he's decided to switch lead offerings,  I've got a couple questions.

First, I'll submit http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ for a wealth of people that cast their own bullets for every type of firearm and purpose imagineable.

Then I ask, how much do those precast un/proven lead offerings cost for those front stuffers?  I've been casting bullets for my pistols/competitive pistols for accuracy and performance on wild game. I've taken deer with my concoctions and would present a hard cast bullet on Elk or Bear. -Harder is not always more accurate but there is a range of hardness where as hunters we should be able to get the accuracy and terminal performance we're looking for.

All it takes is a mold, a melting pot, ladel, some lead, antimony and tin and you can cast your own bullets to give the performance you're looking for. Water quenching will harden them even more depending on what alloy you're concocting.

Some would say you can do better than using a jacketed bullet, for the speeds that you're pushing them through a ML.

So why don't any of you cast your own ML bullets?

-Steve

I am with you on this. A well cast lead bullet will not only give excellant accuracy but also be deadly on ELK and other wild game. I shoot 510gr lead home cast conicals in most of my 50's and have just purchased some 600gr conicals for the 50. A 295gr bullet even behind 150gr powder is not going to have the energy needed to penetrate or expand well in a Elk. The heavy bullets retain incredible energy down feild and will devistate what it hits. I think using a modified pistol round in a rifle and expecting it to perform as a magnum round is out of the question. Noexcuse makes a very nice round and will size to your bore as will Bullshop.  

I took the Bear in my avitar with a .504 White using a 510gr home cast conical over 80gr T7 ffg at 75 yards, a complete pass through (entered behind the near shoulder and exited the far shoulder through the bone) the Bear did NOT take a step and both lungs were gone. I have never had a heavy conical not be a complete pass through.