Calling my pup back

[1morebuck]

I have a 2 year old chocolate lab. He is a natural on duck hunting. The only real problem is that if I knock down a cripple and it is swimming out of retrieving range I am having trouble calling him back. Any suggestions on breaking this?

[oneezreiter]

Is your pup collar conditioned?  If not you will probably have to.

[BIGINNER]

i don't have too much experience with hunting,  but i got a gsp pup a couple months ago,  and the way i teach her,  is:  i keep her on a long rope, (30ft)
and i throw the toy out for her,  i command her to stay untill i give the fetch command...   and several times during her fetch training i will cammand her to come bach when she is halfway to the toy. and i pull on the rope for her to stop, and i give her a treat when she comes back.  now,3 weeks into my training,  i give her the "here" command halfway to her toy,  and she automatically turns around and runs back without me having to pull on the rope.  last week i took her out to the river to play fetch,.. and when i give the here command when she's halfway in she turns around and comes back and waits till i give her the fetch command.  i work witj her 15-20 min a day, every single day,    it works for me,  might work for you. 
and you should definately have her collar conditioned if you haven't already.

[Happy Gilmore]

obedience is all it is.

don't need to buy a collar to have an excellent dog with great obedience. If he's two and you didn't collar condition him as a puppy, I'd say start with your next dog. People say you can collar condition(CC) any age dog but, I do and don't agree. You can but, your end result won't be nearly as nice as if you'd started as a puppy with sit to whistle, sit to whip, sit to collar and had a force fetch (FF)program followed closely with CC program.

A famous dog trainer wrote, "you own what you condone".

I would get some live birds and "set him up" in the same situation but, in a way you can controll the situation and teach him he only goes when he's allowed to go. A check cord is good- if he hasn't been on a e-collar before, don't try a crash course to start with him now. It takes MONTHS to do it right without messing up the dog.

My first thought also is that you don't require him to stay steady in the blind. He can't chase a cripple out to sea or get in the way of a kill shot(s) on a cripple if you never let him start swimming first. There are reasons for steady dogs. Number one is your safety, number two is the dogs safety.

Just my thoughts-

[Tyler_and_Henry]

I would get some live birds and "set him up" in the same situation but, in a way you can controll the situation and teach him he only goes when he's allowed to go. A check cord is good- if he hasn't been on a e-collar before, don't try a crash course to start with him now. It takes MONTHS to do it right without messing up the dog.

Just my thoughts-

I'd have to agree. Use the check cord, to easy to confuse him introducing the e-collar now.

[mjbskwim]

First I have to say you should never have to use an e collar on a lab.They are easily trained if you are consistent with them.
I think people who use them aren't consistent enough,or are in too much of a hurry for results.Just didn't learn the proper techniques for training.

A GSPs,englishs and those type get lost in the hunt and seem to lose their hearing and need to be zapped once in a while for safety reasons.

Labs can be controlled easier.
The rope method seems to work great for puppies.You call them and pull on the rope .Then they associate you calling them with the need to return NOW.
Not sure,but it seems you could still do it at 2 and make it work.

With the problem you are talking about,I had to just shut up and let my dog wonder where I was before she would leave the duck and come back

She was chasing a wounded around in a slew when it disappeared and re-appeared about 50yds away.She lost track and wouldn't come out.I walked away and she finally came.

Same thing happened Saturday to a guy out at a hunting spot.The dog was about 100yds out.It was almost to the other side of the inlet.He called and called.Nothing.
Finally it did swim to another side of the bay and came back.
Its like when you are calling them they keep track of you.If you don't call,then they wonder if you left them or not.
My theory anyway.

Good luck.

[SnowDog]

First I have to say you should never have to use an e collar on a lab.They are easily trained if you are consistent with them.
I think people who use them aren't consistent enough,or are in too much of a hurry for results.Just didn't learn the proper techniques for training.

There are several methods and tools for training, but to say that people who use e-collars are not consistant enough or never learned the proper techniques is just plain wrong. E-collars are a valuable tool for applying pressure, just as a rope, pinch collar, or heeling stick are also used. I'm not saying the e-collar is a requirement, but let's be clear that it is an acceptable tool used by the majority of professional retriever trainers these days.

[mjbskwim]

Yes and most professional trainers want fast results.
E collars make the training easier and faster.

I simply said that if you are consistent with a LAB or a golden ,you should ever need a e-collar.

For GSPs GWP and these type,they are important some times.These dogs just don't listen. My GSP/lab is always making me think about one.

I saw a lady with a 10lb chocolate at a park. What 3 months? Maybe 4?

She already had it trained for hand signals
She had never trained a dog before Labs just need time and consistency.
They want to please.

You know most dog training is for the owners right?
Maybe they need the collars?

Another guy had a GSP he was calling like it was his lap dog.
"come here sweety"
I said "It's a german dog"
Yeah a GSP
I know we had one when I was a kid.You can't call them like that.
I called the dog hard,it came,told it to sit,it sat.And the guy was surprised.
They don't listen,they sometimes need a shock to remind them you are there.

The pointers don't care about pleasing you as much as labs.

If you are around REAL dog handlers and breeders,you will see more and more that the dog is ,for the most part,a commodity.Nothing else.
They train them for field trials to show off their dogs and have trophies to show buyers.
Trainers want to show results for the new dog owners,so they go with e collars

Hell they drown pups that aren't up to snuff.So taking what a "professional" does ,sometimes isn't the best avenue for the dog.Maybe the quickest,not always the best.

This is from hands on trial and error.The last 9 years being around just about every breed you can think of. I don't know everything,but I have learned quite a bit over that 9 years.

[Copperwood]

Obedience training will fix your problem. No offense but the problem is the training not the dog. At 2 yo the dog should not have that problem.
I'm not big on debates but saying an e-collar is not necessary is an ignorant statement. Saying all labs want to please is a crock too. Not all labs think like that, they all have different personalities and require different kinds of training. How do you correct a dog that is 300 yards out and will not take a cast? A nick will fix the problem when the person w/o the collar is either running out to him or calling him in to rerun the blind. A collar does speed training up and it is possible to train a dog without one. But it's also possible to walk to work everyday instead of drive. A little nick every once in a while is a lot easier on the dog and trainer. 
Good luck with your dog

[Happy Gilmore]

Yes and most professional trainers want fast results.
E collars make the training easier and faster.

I simply said that if you are consistent with a LAB or a golden ,you should ever need a e-collar.

For GSPs GWP and these type,they are important some times.These dogs just don't listen. My GSP/lab is always making me think about one.

I saw a lady with a 10lb chocolate at a park. What 3 months? Maybe 4?

She already had it trained for hand signals
She had never trained a dog before Labs just need time and consistency.
They want to please.

You know most dog training is for the owners right?
Maybe they need the collars?

Another guy had a GSP he was calling like it was his lap dog.
"come here sweety"
I said "It's a german dog"
Yeah a GSP
I know we had one when I was a kid.You can't call them like that.
I called the dog hard,it came,told it to sit,it sat.And the guy was surprised.
They don't listen,they sometimes need a shock to remind them you are there.

The pointers don't care about pleasing you as much as labs.

If you are around REAL dog handlers and breeders,you will see more and more that the dog is ,for the most part,a commodity.Nothing else.
They train them for field trials to show off their dogs and have trophies to show buyers.
Trainers want to show results for the new dog owners,so they go with e collars

Hell they drown pups that aren't up to snuff.So taking what a "professional" does ,sometimes isn't the best avenue for the dog.Maybe the quickest,not always the best.

This is from hands on trial and error.The last 9 years being around just about every breed you can think of. I don't know everything,but I have learned quite a bit over that 9 years.

So, if the dogs have trophy's and ribbons doesn't that mean they are probably pretty well trained and the owner has spent alot of time on the dog?

curious,

how do you train a dog to do a blind retrieve without an e-collar? Do you use slingshots and whips and do it over and over and over until the dog gives in?

also, remote whistle sits. Do you shoot the dog with a shot gun for ignoring your whistle at 100 yards?

It seams to me that using a tool that works quickly and certainly versus "nagging" a dog for months and years is much more humane.

[SnowDog]

It seams to me that using a tool that works quickly and certainly versus "nagging" a dog for months and years is much more humane.

 

[Rowdy]

Some interesting comments...
For me, an E-Collar is a tool mainly used for safety.  For example some dogs have a huge prey drive and tend to go deaf while on the trail of "off game".  A little nick and a "here", back to business.  I took my shorthair out on Saturday to look for some Chukar, didn't use the Collar once.  Next time might need to use it a few times, regardless it's a tool that I need to insure nothing happens to my pup.  It's almost like a mile long leash. 

Oh, I completely disagree with the field trialer comment.  I don't trial but know people who do and they are great dog trainers.

Jake 

[mjbskwim]

I am glad I made someone think and defend their stance on this.

The professional dog people I have come across are not people I could ever be around very much.Not people friendly and don't care for the animals

for the most part.

Again,if you spend enough time with a young lad it will do what you want.
(how did you ever even think of a sling shot or whips for training anyway?
There is my point)

Shoot your dog? WTF? Man you DO need to read some books,get a new trainer or just get rid of your dogs,for that statement.
How did you come up with that thought?

Why would you need to work a dog from 100yds,anyway?
Move closer? Just a though.

Oh and thanks for making my point on dog handlers and not seeing them as pet,just commodities.

And Rowdy.your breed is one of the dogs I would definitely use a collar on. If my GSP/lab wasn't gun shy,she wouldn't listen at all if she got on a bird.
Most definitely she would have an e collar

Again again again.It's kinda lie using a gun.You have to know your limits.
Maybe you can't control your lab 100yds away.(although I have never heard of anyone with any breed having a 100yd problem) Learn to hunt the dog closer.

A GSP GWP,drathar type just doesn't  like to listen (FOR THE MOST PART<same with labs pleasing,FOR THE MOST PART) They DO need a zap once in a while.
They run thru fences.Tear themselves up.

You know as soon as you change 1 little thing up in training,you have started over,right?

Consistency is the key
Domination
Consistency
exercise
some play time and love
consistency.

That's to train you,not the dog.

Hey good luck guys.
You need some help,just let this non pro give you a hand.

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't see how you "made" anyone defend their stance. Honestly, your thinking that GSP need zapping and labs don't really sparked my interest in your experience. My first honest thought is that you have not spent a whole lot of time around any recognized pro trainers or, they have steered you away from using a collar because it really shouldn't be in your hands. I'm not saying I know everything or anything but, as I've been told, "I know just enough to be dangerous" 

Why do you need to handle a dog at 100 yards? because a bird has been killed in a spot no human or boat can reach. Its going to take a well trained hunting dog who has as much trust in his master as the master has trust  in him. To retrieve a bird to keep from breaking the law and being issued a citation for wasting game is another reason why you have a dog which will handle at 100+yards. There are solid cattails, stumps, lilly pads and swamp grass. You're not walking there, the boat isn't getting there but, you've shot a goose and it locked up and landed there. This could also be true hunting pheasant at a place like Mattawa. Bird flies over the creek into swamp and high cover. My female made this exact retrieve the week before on a big lesser.

Also, if you have a pointer, why wouldn't you want a dog to go on point and hold that point at 100 yards away until you get there to flush? Wild pheasants in the wheat fields flush at over 100 yards to the sound of a man on foot. Have a dog point and hold it? you've got a dandy rooster.

E-collars aren't for "zapping" dogs when they don't listen.

Whips aren't used for "whipping". Your response tells me you've never seen a horse crop used in training properly and you've never used an e-collar correctly or seen one used correctly.

If you know much about dog training, you would know that shooting dogs to teach "sit to whistle" was how it was done prior to e-collars. Charlie Morgan's book is a good classic and has a section on the shot guns and slingshots if you like to read. Also, DL Walters also talks about use of shot guns and slingshots.

Modern reading on use of e-collar would be best researched by reading Mike Lardy's books. Then read Bill Hillman's articles. Evan Graham has a good video series and a step by step manual to follow which is good for beginners. The old Tri-Tronics manual which used to come with collars isn't bad but, leaves alot out and doesn't cover critical training aspects. Old books on the Koehler Methods, Fur and Feather, Water Dog etc really have little relevance and don't teach you how to do much other than dream about having a well trained dog. There is no replacement for time spent being mentored by accomplished trainers.

Are you sure you're not just a lurker posting off the wall comments for fun?

[Dadbear]

Work with him consistently introducing the "trolling in whistle" to teach him to come anytime you do this. Labs can learn new things throughout their lives. He'll come around.