using illumanock in Wa

[huntnphool]

Should we allow free choice in equipment, just because that is our right as Americans ?

 YES!!!! I'm not about to give up any of my rights as an American, if you choose to then thats your prerogative, don't complain when they take away another, and another, and another then.

 If trad guys don't want to use lumenoks then they can choose not to, for them to whine and make up BS, non founded, speculated excuses is wrong, its just a selfish excuse for them to pressure WDFW for their own seasons. You don't want to drive the posted limit on the interstate then fine, move right and get the f#$% out of the way, let those that do make their own choice without you holding everything up. ("You" being a general term and not directed at you personaly)

 As far as conservatives vs libs, I think you are confused as to which side Obummer and Pelosi are on, they can never be confused with conservatives.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

This is exactly the same type of thinking that has the liberal think tank in DC trying to figure out a way to ban firearms, the ethical people are the ones that are effected the most

As far as conservatives vs libs, I think you are confused as to which side Obummer and Pelosi are on, they can never be confused with conservatives.

I was not referring to Obama and Pelosi, I was referring to the attitude that "anything goes, that is my right as an American being "liberal" thinking, while a stricter adherance to the laws as written being conservative, and the desire to keep it the way it is (was).
To use your own example, the "liberal think tank in DC trying to figure out a way to ban firearms" would compare the liberal bowhunters allowing new technology into bowhunting, to give A FEW bowhunters the opportunity to make THE MAJORITY look bad, thereby permitting THE NON_HUNTING public to have a negative opinion about ALL BOWHUNTERS.
It is not just the "Trad Guys", but until recently a MAJORITY of ALL BOWHUNTERS that were against the use.
Now times have changed, more guy are getting into bowhunting, for various reasons, but you will never convince me that  our argument is any less significant, or is any more " BS, non founded, speculated excuses" than the "modern" hunters arguments based upon research by manufacturers and others that are only interested in marketing a product.
I have been Bowhunting for 24 years, have managed to harvest 5 Elk, and 18 deer, have only lost one deer, and one Elk, the deer because of a poorly designed broadhead, and the elk because of a poor choice in hunting companions, not once in my time hunting with archery equipment did my choice of nock have anything to do with harvest.
I do not say that it will have ANY effect on season structure, or success rates, merely that I feel it is just one more nail in the coffin of separate archery seasons.
I do not feel that Traditional Archers need their own seasons, or units. I just feel that Archery seasons need to remain as they are, and if you want to change the rules to compensate (("You" being a general term and not directed at you personally) for your own shortcomings, and be allowed to use the latest technology to enhance your abilities, then by all means "get on the Interstate" and hunt during a "modern Season", but if you like "cruising the back-roads" (Archery or Muzzleloader seasons) please do not try to force your "Change" on me, as that is more similar to  "which side Obummer and Pelosi are on" than my own personal views.

[Snapshot]

Should we allow free choice in equipment, just because that is our right as Americans ?

YES!!!! I'm not about to give up any of my rights as an American...

For those whose blood has been on this continent for at least a few generations, if your father's grandfather (or maybe one step further back) had not willingly given up an American hunting right we probably wouldn't have any free roaming game animals to hunt today. I consider us fortunate that Teddy Roosevelt and company who thought of the future and not only themselves saw to it that market hunting, a right of all Americans for the century and a quarter prior, was stopped while there were still some game animals left. People screamed bloody murder about it at the time, "HOW DARE THEY SAY WE CAN'T HUNT HOW WE WANT WHEN WE WANT?" But in the end the conservation ethic that was birthed out of that argument has led to you and me, the future generations that Roosevelt was thinking of, having the good hunting opportunities we enjoy. My point is, "Get out of the way..." (to let us do anything we want to do) is selfish.
 
Further, in my opinion, this issue of keeping electronics out of archery hunting has nothing whatsoever to do with separate seasons. Talk about made-up, BS, non-founded, speculated excuses...Holy Smoke! (right up my skirt). 
 
Politics? BIG TIME    now; but it will catapult the thread to the 30 (+) page mark; no doubt about it.

[huntnphool]

Stiknstring, I went back and read the entire thread, holy sH!@ I think I can clear some of this up as far as the guys that would like to use them. You wrote;

I do not care what you use to hunt with, but I do feel that Lumenocs, lighted sight pins, etc, are not used by guys that hunt with a bow for the same reasons I do, they are entitled to their choices, and I see no reason why they should NOT be able to use them, but if you use a weapon with "self imposed limitations" such as Archery equipment, why do you want to add stuff to it to make things easier ?

  I also read similar statements by a couple other guys in this thread.  Here is one of the issues that perhaps a lot of the trad guys have not taken into account. There are several factors that have led to the number of archery hunters increasing over the years, one of the big reasons is the length of the season and the advancement in tech/gear. You are correct that these guys are not hunting with a bow for the same reason you are. They are hunting with a bow because of the longer seasons. It stands to reason that this is where the big push for rules to be changed. One more thing, I have hunted with archery gear during a modern season. For me its not about the weapon choice but rather the time of year I want to hunt. If it were legal to use archery gear during a muzzy season then I would be purchasing a muzzy "season" tag each year rather than archery.

 Snapshot, I'm not suggesting that it be a free for all with gear, I do not support electronics on bows etc, I do not see why the use of a post shot product is prohibited though. Also, it was brought up a while ago that perhaps trad guys should get their own seasons, separate from the guys with "training wheels" and lumenoks. It was also speculated that it would lead to shorter seasons, another political type comment that once said, even without a shred of merit, is subconsciously stored.

[Machias]

phool this is not just a "trad" guy thing.  I have hunted with a compound bow for 30 years, I just switched to trad last year.  I've been against electronics on bows and arrows the whole time not just in the past year.  I'll probably go back to a compound next year, probably a Matthews ez7.   I'll still not support lighted nocks, because in my opinion, if you keep your shots to 40 yards or less they are not needed.  I suspect your side will get it passed, more power to you guys, it'll just be without my support......did we make 30 pages yet?

[WildWind1]

Oh ya, 30 pages   this late at night who cares.

Machias, let us know how the ez7 shoots?

[Lowedog]

See, I like the argument from the opposing camp that simply states that "I don't want electronics allowed in archery seasons".  It is the degrading comments from the elitist snobs who have a superiority complex on here that bother me. 

They like to brag about how they only have lost one or 2 animals over decades of archery hunting at no fault of their own no less.  They have created some grand illusions of themselves being one with nature and no one else could possibly be hunting for the reasons they are.  Hunting with what they call "traditional" gear has somehow connected them to the past where they can walk side by side with the "fore fathers" of archery only hunting. (lets not bring up the point that the "fore fathers" had a product to sell also) 

Get off your high horse.  If you are against allowing more technology in archery then leave it at that.  Suggesting that anyone that uses anything but what you do are making up for shortcomings is not an argument and it just makes you sound like an ass. 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

See, I like the argument from the opposing camp that simply states that "I don't want electronics allowed in archery seasons".  It is the degrading comments from the elitist snobs who have a superiority complex on here that bother me. 

They like to brag about how they only have lost one or 2 animals over decades of archery hunting at no fault of their own no less.  They have created some grand illusions of themselves being one with nature and no one else could possibly be hunting for the reasons they are.  Hunting with what they call "traditional" gear has somehow connected them to the past where they can walk side by side with the "fore fathers" of archery only hunting. (lets not bring up the point that the "fore fathers" had a product to sell also) 

Get off your high horse.  If you are against allowing more technology in archery then leave it at that.  Suggesting that anyone that uses anything but what you do are making up for shortcomings is not an argument and it just makes you sound like an ass.

I guess you mean me... 
Not bragging, and I did say the lost animals were due to poor choices.
I do not have a "grand illusion" of myself, I know I am not the best (or even top 1000+'s hunter out there) I also do not say that anyone who uses anything different than I do.. etc.
I said that anyone who says that they NEED to use new technology is relying on it as a substitute for skills they lack.
If they said they want to use it just because they think it is cool, that is understandable.
But to claim it will have a major influence on their ability to recover an animal, then they are admitting that they have a problem utilizing abilities to read sign and follow tracks.
Just because I like to walk around with a recurve makes me no different than someone who uses a compound, I don't think it makes me more connected, it is the fact that I do not try to add things to my bow/arrow combination other than my eyes and ears in an effort to increase my range and ability to shoot in lower light situations, that connects me.
As far as me being against allowing more technology, I have stated repeatedly that I am not against it, I just feel it is unnecessary.
I must have some sort of communication block that keeps portraying me as an "Elitist Snob" as I welcome all hunters in my camp and appreciate their equipment as efficient arrow launching devices.
The choice to use whatever you want is yours, but as in all choices there is some give and take, when you choose to use archery tackle to hunt with, you make the choice freely.
To then decide that it is too limiting, and cry for change, well that is a good enough reason for me to feel that I am different, as I accepted the limits and then went a step further (in my own style)
My "connection" has to do with learning how to get closer to the animals, not increasing my effective range, or using attachments to my equipment to make it easier.
As far as my reverence of the fathers of our sport, yes they had a product to sell, but if it were not for them we would be hunting during modern seasons, if that is what you want to do, welcome to it.
I never claimed to be "better", I just stated my position. I only have one small Bull (242") and the rest are all meat (cows, does, spikes, forks) so I am not saying that I am a better hunter, I merely pointed out that THE NOCK END OF MY ARROW NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH RECOVERY.

[Snapshot]

The study is real look it up and FYI Mr. Landers found that one not me.

The first fact I found when looking at a document from the 1986 Western States and Provinces Workshop is that Montana did not have a "choose your weapon" rule (and I believe still doesn't, but I could be wrong about that). So anyone could get themselves a bow to dick around with until the rifle season opened. In that document the Colorado representative explained that in his state believed that "choose your weapon" had taken the not-dedicated-to-bowhunting bowhunters out of the archery season. He said, "We feel now that we've boiled archery hunting down to the real archery users, the people who are willing to practice with a bow. I think it's cut our wounding loss quite a bit."
 
More to follow if I find anything relevant...

[Machias]

See, I like the argument from the opposing camp that simply states that "I don't want electronics allowed in archery seasons".  It is the degrading comments from the elitist snobs who have a superiority complex on here that bother me. 

They like to brag about how they only have lost one or 2 animals over decades of archery hunting at no fault of their own no less.  They have created some grand illusions of themselves being one with nature and no one else could possibly be hunting for the reasons they are.  Hunting with what they call "traditional" gear has somehow connected them to the past where they can walk side by side with the "fore fathers" of archery only hunting. (lets not bring up the point that the "fore fathers" had a product to sell also) 

Get off your high horse.  If you are against allowing more technology in archery then leave it at that.  Suggesting that anyone that uses anything but what you do are making up for shortcomings is not an argument and it just makes you sound like an ass. 

I haven't lost an arrow or an animal in probably 20 years.  Has nothing to do with being sooo much better.  It comes from earlier mistakes, shooting too far, shooting at alert animals, shooting at bad angles.  I haven't lost an animal or an arrow in alot of years because of the mistakes I made as a kid.  I started archery hunting in 1979.  Do we all have to make the same mistakes or can some of these guys maybe learn from some of our mistakes?  The reason I haven't lost an arrow is now, no matter what, I won't take a bad shot.  Doesn't mean I will never again loose an animal or an arrow, but I try my hardest not too.  Preaching to the younger crowd or guys just taking up this great sport is not to be superior, it's hopefully they will not have to experience firsthand some of the heartaches associated with long range shooting, shooting at alert animals etc...  The sport is also under alot more scrutiny than it used to be.
 
Will do Wildwind1.   

[huntnphool]

So anyone could get themselves a bow to dick around with until the rifle season opened.

 Just an FYI Snapshot, Montana requires a archery class or proof from the previous year that you hunted a archery season, eg. previous years license, to purchase a archery stamp.

 Its actually easier in Washington to buy a archery license.

[Snapshot]

I need to get my hands on "A Review of Bow Wounding Literature" by Mayer and Samuel which is said to effectively debunk the lie anti-hunters promote that claims bowhunting has a 50% wounding rate. Every so-called study I've found so far that makes such a claim is from entities that would love to see an end to hunting.
 
Yes, Montana requires that now, HnP, but did they in 1986? Not that it really matters now...but maybe it was that workshop that led to a rule change.

[dreamunelk]

Here are some links.  Important to consider the date as there have been significant changes in Archery equipment and the people who choose this weapon for hunting.
http://www.nocull.org/Documentation/bowhunting_report.pdf
http://www.bowhuntersofutah.net/phocadownload/Miscellaneous/wendy%20krueger%20wounding%20study.pdf
http://www.thearcher.com/depot/resourceCentre/BowhuntingBook.pdf
http://www.seafwa.org/resource/dynamic/private/PDF/MORTON-432-438.pdf

I am basically against any electronic devise and lots of other things. I am a rifle, compound, and a long bow hunter.  Basically depends on where I am.  but, mainly traditional. However, as it seams the overall opinion for this by my fellow hunters is that they want it.  So I would support.  However, I think we need to take a hard look at what we are promoting.   I firmly believe the wounding rate has increased based on the number of elk I know that have been harvested with old broadheads in them.  I firmly believe this is because we have to many people who are just shooting to far and taking percentage shots.  I often wonder how did we ever hunt with out all the modern tools?  Are we more efficient now or less?  Are we losing the connection that we once had?   It is basically up to the individual.  However, as a group I think we are doing a poor job of representing our selves.  I am not that old and can remember a time when it was consider okay to take a week off from school to go deer or elk hunting.  When you went in to the grocery store people wished you luck.  That has really changed.   Should we just blame the antis and be done with it or should we ask our selves what we did wrong.  The sad truth is it is a combination of both.  I really do not think the equipment makes the hunter, but it can make the killer.  Think about it!

[rooselk]

Washington bowhunting seasons were established and then defended by bowhunting pioneers like Kore Duryee, Glenn St. Charles and others who used traditional archery equipment. Although those earlier pioneers were ultimately successful in establishing our bowhunting seasons, it is also true that they did so despite facing significant opposition. What I find ironic in this current discussion is that the advocates of allowing more technology in our archery seasons make the very same arguments as those long ago who opposed the establishment of our archery seasons. And I find that truly sad, to say nothing of divisive.

[dreamunelk]

Washington bowhunting seasons were established and then defended by bowhunting pioneers like Kore Duryee, Glenn St. Charles and others who used traditional archery equipment. Although those earlier pioneers were ultimately successful in establishing our bowhunting seasons, it is also true that they did so despite facing significant opposition. What I find ironic in this current discussion is that the advocates of allowing more technology in our archery seasons make the very same arguments as those long ago who opposed the establishment of our archery seasons. And I find that truly sad, to say nothing of divisive.

You are correct and what you say is very true.  I really wish we could get back to the basics instead of supporting an industry that really only cares about the next years sales.   I firmly believe if we went back to the some of the basics we would see a decrease in bow hunters and a resulting increase in credibility.  But, I am in the minority and think that I should once in awhile go with the majority.  However, now that I ponder this I wonder if I am being hypocritical.