Muzzle Loader bullet ????? Argh.

[nontypical176]

2 shots at one elk.  Hornady SST bullets, 777 loose 100 grains, knight 50 caliber.  First shot 60 yards was hi and broke the back, second shot was 20 yards in the neck, kill shot.  Not sure wich bullet hit where, I wasn't there during the skinning and my drunk buddies couldn't remember which bullet came from which spot.  Don't like the looks of the one bullet though.  What do you think might have happened to make the bullet not mushroom?

[Lowedog]

My guess and just a wild guess is that it was the first shot and maybe that load had been in the barrel long enough to get a little moisture causing it not to have the energy needed to fully expand.     If it broke the back though you would think it would have enough energy to expand. 

[WestPlains_Drifter]

I am not sure how much sense this makes, but i will give you my experience (minus the technical facts).

I shoot the SST's also, out of a CVA Elkhorn, 100 grains of pyro. Out of 5 deer now I have found that the sabot needs air time (not sure if thats the right term) to hit and expand. Anything under 75 yards my bullets pass right through, bone, muscle, whatever, usually little to no expansion. 75-115 yards i get decent expansion. 115+ massive expansion and serious effing damage. Not sure why this is, but letting you know its not you.

P.S. I hit a doe in the neck this year at about 160, almost took the head off.

Keith

[Grouse Hunter]

Out of 5 deer now I have found that the sabot needs air time (not sure if thats the right term) to hit and expand. Anything under 75 yards my bullets pass right through, bone, muscle, whatever, usually little to no expansion. 75-115 yards i get decent expansion. 115+ massive expansion and serious effing damage. Not sure why this is, but letting you know its not you.

You should get more expansion the closer you are. More velocity = more expansion.

[WestPlains_Drifter]

Out of 5 deer now I have found that the sabot needs air time (not sure if thats the right term) to hit and expand. Anything under 75 yards my bullets pass right through, bone, muscle, whatever, usually little to no expansion. 75-115 yards i get decent expansion. 115+ massive expansion and serious effing damage. Not sure why this is, but letting you know its not you.

You should get more expansion the closer you are. More velocity = more expansion.

Like I said

I am not sure how much sense this makes, but i will give you my experience (minus the technical facts).

Not arguing the technical aspect, just sayin it doesn't seem these sabots follow your rules

[BoomWhop]

I shot a nice bull with these bullets and the same powder, recovered both.  I would bet big money goofy bullet 1st shot, neck shot mushroom.  I have also shot 2 bucks, and my brother shot another buck same bullets and powder, recovered all 3 bullets.  All bullets mushroomed nice but did not hit a major bone.

[ML_Hunter]

My experience with the STS is that they really do not expand well at all. I've never shot at game with the bullet but after test firing them, just found that expansion sucked. They may act much differently with hitting an animal over phone books however! I am now using the Barns T-MZ's and get much greater velocity, better accuracy, and the bullet will do massive damage on both deer and elk! Couldn't be more pleased with the tmz's!!

[jstone]

Shot my cow with the SST at 100 yards the bullet did not expand. from what i could tell. bullet entered between 2 ribs through the heart and through a rib on the other side. Same size hole on both sides of the elk??

[nontypical176]

Well guys, thanks for the help.  I wanted to use the Barnes bullets, but nobody carries them locally and I have always had good luck with Hornady so I gave them a chance.  I really don't think the powder was wet, but it is possible.  Nothing seemed wrong when the lead was flying, the shots looked and sounded normal.  The performance reviews for the Barnes bullets have been great, so maybe the best thing is to switch now.  I could stick with the Hornady, there have been 3 bulls killed with my gun and this is the only bullet I found that didn't perform well out of 4 shots taken.  They seem accurate enough for sure. 

Its hard to keep switching gear, but the rules changed and I want the most thump for my money, but I trust muzzle loaders less than bows or rifles.  Every year its horror stories of guns not going off, wounded game and other problems.  If it weren't for the late muzzle loader hunt close to home I would have switched back to flinging arrows.  Anyhow.....I'll probably try Barnes bullets and see if they up my odds of a good clean kill.
Back to the practice range.......with all my muzzle loader cleaning hoopla.  Muzzle loaders are a pain in the ars.

[Lowedog]

Barnes 250gr TMZ that I recovered from my bull elk.

[CP]

I’ll throw my theory out for what it’s worth:

The SST is very similar to the XTP bullet.  I’ve found that both will expand nicely when they hit soft tissue but they do not expand much when they hit something hard, like bone. 

I’d guess that the bullet on the right traveled through something soft before hitting bone, the one on the left hit some bone pretty quickly.

The bottom line is the elk is dead; the bullets did their job. 

[Skillet]

I had a bunch of .45 cal 300 grain XTP Mag's in black sabots my muzzleloader shot very well with 90g of RS, but I didn't use them hunting because they recommend velocities higher than 1800 FPS for proper expansion, if I recall correctly.  I've never chrono'd that load, but it seemed REALLY high for an ol' caplock Hawken at any reasonable hunting range.

[CP]

1800 fps would be near the top end:

[Blsum]

So here's my experience with the sst bullets. They shoot great, they are easy to load and they are very accurate. However after doing some testing with them and several other bullets I'm not impressed with them. I'll post a link to a couple of threads where I tested them and others.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,50883.msg619220.html#msg619220

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,46720.0.html

Check these threads out. My suggestion would be to find someone who has the barnes 290 tmz bullets. Even if you have to order them. The way I figure it. If you spent all this money on tags and equipment they why go cheap on the most important part of the hunt. The bullet. This is the first year that I've hunted with the tmz's and they did a great job. In our group we got two deer this year. Both of them dropped right in there tracks after being hit with a tmz. We recovered both bullets and they looked exactly like they did in my test. Even after hitting bone. They preformed awesome. I don't think I will use any other bullet. As far as muzzle loaders being a pain in the arse. Well that's just the joy's of muzzy hunting.

[Skillet]

1800 fps would be near the top end:

Thanks - that is the chart I was looking for!

[dawhunt]

Why would it mushroom in soft tissue and not when it hits a bone ?
Bob

[Dirty Mike]

I have shot a ton of sst none have mushroomed the copper is to hard but the tmz drops them in their tracks

[ML_Hunter]

I shot an elk with the TMZ bullet on Saturday.  The elk was down before the smoke cleared!  Bullet passed through and through at about 115 yards entering the Right shoulder and exiting the left through the ribs after tearing through both lungs.

[Lowedog]

I shot an elk with the TMZ bullet on Saturday.  The elk was down before the smoke cleared!  Bullet passed through and through at about 115 yards entering the Right shoulder and exiting the left through the ribs after tearing through both lungs.

Nice!  That bullet is deadly!! 

[bearpaw]

So do you guys prefer the 250 or 300 grain TMZ in a .50?

Which is flatter shooting?

[carpsniperg2]

So do you guys prefer the 250 or 300 grain TMZ in a .50?

Which is flatter shooting?

The tmz's comes in 250's and 290's in the 50cal. I shoot the 290's, but I am sure the 250 are flatter shooting. But that also depends on powder charge. Some lighter bullets, need lighter powder charges then the heavy bullets. So I guess if you were shoot the 250 with 100 grains and the 290 with 150 grains. The 290 could be flatter shooting. Just depends on what the gun likes. Hope this helps Dale.

[bobcat]

I think there would be very little difference in trajectory between the two weights. Both of them should shoot plenty flat. I would go with the heavier bullet, unless the lighter one was more accurate. To me anything less than 300 grains is too light for a muzzleloader bullet, but for the Barnes I would make an exception, being that they are 100% copper.

[Lowedog]

So do you guys prefer the 250 or 300 grain TMZ in a .50?

Which is flatter shooting?

Using the data from Hodgdon and a 100gr load of T7 the 290gr TMZ is around 150 fps slower than the 250gr.  Sighted in at 150 with both would only be about an inch difference in drop at 200.  the 250 is about 8" drop from 150-200 and the 290 is about 9".  

With not much energy difference between the 2 weights I think it is a toss up and personal preference.  

[bobcat]

From this test, it looks like the 290 drops 1 1/2 inches more at 200 yards, when zeroed at 100 yards.  (look at #9 and #12)

No. 1     Precision Rifle 195-gr. .357" diameter (duplex sabot) "Dead Center" - 5.25" drop

No. 2     Precision Rifle 260-gr. .400" diameter "Dead Center" - 6.9" drop

No. 3     Precision Rifle 240-gr. .400" diameter "Dead Center" - 7.3" drop

No. 4     Precision Rifle 260-gr. .400" diameter "Extreme Elite HP" - 7.4" drop

No. 5     Precision Rifle 300-gr. .430" diameter "Dead Center" - 7.5" drop

No. 6     Precision Rifle 240-gr. .40" diameter "Extreme Elite HP" - 7.9" drop

No. 7     Precision Rifle 340-gr. .451" diameter "Dead Center" - 8.85" drop

No. 8   Parker Productions 250-gr. .451" diameter "Ballistic Extreme" - 9.7" drop

No. 9   Barnes Bullets 250-gr. .451" diameter "TMZ" - 9.9" drop

No. 10 Hornady 250-gr. .452" diameter "SST" - 10.8" drop

No. 11 Parker Productions 275-gr. .451" diameter "Ballistic Extreme" - 11.2" drop

No. 12 Barnes Bullets 290-gr. .451" diameter "TMZ" - 11.5" drop

No. 13 Barnes Bullets 245-gr. .451" diameter "Spit-Fire" - 11.8" drop

No. 14 Hornady 300-gr. .452" diameter "SST" - 12.3" drop

No. 15 Barnes Bullets 285-gr. .451" diameter "Spit-Fire" - 12.9" drop

No. 16 Power Belt Aerotip 295-gr. .499" diameter plastic skirted bullet - 13.8" drop

No. 17 Power Belt Aerotip 223-gr. .499" diameter plastic skirted bullet - 14.9" drop

No. 18 Harvester Muzzleloading 260-gr. .451" diameter funnel-point bullet - 15.9" drop

No. 19 Hornady 250-gr. .452" diameter "XTP" jacketed hollow-point bullet - 18.7" drop

No. 20 Hornady 300-gr. .452" diameter "XTP" jacketed hollow-point bullet - 21.2" drop

http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm

[carpsniperg2]

Here is the link to the data online. There is not very much diffrence, between the two. For anyone that would like the info

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/MuzzleloaderData.pdf

[bearpaw]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations guys. I had ordered some barnes bullets for other guns and figured I would place another order one of these days for some TMZ's, I think I will get some of both weight and see which my gun likes best.

I have a CVA .50 Hawken that shoots fairly well. The other bullets I have been using chrony at about 1890-1920 with 120gr FFF, so it seems about as fast as most guns. What gun do you think is the fastest shooting gun?    Just in case I get a wild hair someday...

[ramslam]

I have not tried the TMZ's but I will give two thumbs up to the SST's.  I took a ram in the Yukon in August at 215 yards with 105 gr 777.  He never took another step. 

[bearpaw]

congrats ramslam, that is awesome, I really haven't killed a lot with my muzzy, an elk and some squirrels, but want to use it more someday....

I have seen lots of animals killed by other guys and enjoy being around the muzzies.

[ramslam]

I've only really been into it muzzy hunting since 2006.  I absolutely love it.  I've taken two mulies, one bull elk, two whities, an antelope and my yukon sheep. 

Cant wait to get back north in a couple years after sheep and moose!

[bearpaw]

Maybe I will take a muzzy on my next trip to NZ/AU. That would be fun.... Ramslam I will see how these TMZ's do and if I don't like them, I will try the SST's.

Thanks for info everyone.

[ramslam]

Let me know how they load too.

[bearpaw]

In reading on the Barnes website I see that a guy needs to buy the right sabot to go with the TMZ. This is good info for everyone to know and probably has an effect on accuracy of any bullet shot from any muzzleloader using a sabot.


Best Accuracy For Your Muzzleloader
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/muzzleloader/muzzleloader-accuracy/

[SkookumHntr]

Isnt the Bullet in the sabot when you buy them?

[Jason]

Isnt the Bullet in the sabot when you buy them?

Correct, but if you read the artical in the link Bearpaw provided you will see what he's talking about.

[SkookumHntr]

I was looking at the Barnes 290grn TMZ's today. Man they are almost twice as much as the Hornady SST's. 33Bucks for a pack of 20. I think Im going to see how They shoot out of my BigHorn, Hearing about lots of 1 shot kills. I'll stick With 100grns of 777 though!

[Jason]

I was looking at the Barnes 290grn TMZ's today. Man they are almost twice as much as the Hornady SST's. 33Bucks for a pack of 20. I think Im going to see how They shoot out of my BigHorn, Hearing about lots of 1 shot kills. I'll stick With 100grns of 777 though!

I bought some 290 TMZ's at Wholesale Sports for $22 for 20

[SkookumHntr]

Thats where I was!! In lacey though! wtf! Unless I read it wrong?? I dont think I did though.

[bearpaw]

I guess I should have pasted the story. They are basically saying you need to determine the bore diameter of your gun and shoot the proper sabot. He says older guns generally have a larger bore.

Here it is:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/muzzleloader/muzzleloader-accuracy/


Best Accuracy For Your Muzzleloader

We are fielding a variety of calls in regard to the many choices of bullets and sabot combinations, so I would like to discuss options that are available from Barnes. I’ll also throw in an aftermarket combination that is proving to be successful for some folks. For the purposes of this article, we will be working with and referring to the 50 caliber inline muzzleloaders and saboted bullets.

Let’s begin by saying that all muzzleloaders are not created equal. Even within a given brand of firearm, there may be a variety of bore diameters. We have noticed a trend from older muzzleloaders (most all brands) with larger bore diameters, to many of the new muzzleloaders having very tight bore diameters. We have found that generally speaking, but certainly not always, muzzleloaders that are about 8 years or older typically range in bore diameter from .502 to .504”, while those that are newer typically range from .499” to .501”. I’ll refer to the .502” to .504” bore as the “large bore diameter”, and the .499” to .501” as the “small bore diameter” from this point forward to simplify. Because there are so many variations it can be very difficult for any one bullet and sabot combination to work well in all of the various rifles. To add fuel to the fire, there are numerous powder choices as well.

The Barnes 250gr and 300gr MZ Expanders that come paired with the MMP black HPH 12 sabots have a large hollow nose cavity and a flat base design. These bullets have been a great choice as packaged for those muzzleloaders with the larger bore diameters. For the small bore diameter, a simple sabot substitution can be made to aid in the ease of loading. I’d suggest MMP’s HPH 24 as the “best solution” we have found, but another good option is the MMP 3-petal EZ. Both are available from Muzzleload Magnum Products (MMP) in Harrison, AR, phone #870-741-5019, or online at www.mmpsabots.com.

Barnes Spit-Fire and Spit-Fire TMZ have a more streamlined nose and a boattail design. The TMZ has a polymer tip. This unique boattail requires the special yellow sabot these bullets are packaged with that is made exclusively for Barnes. This combination works well for the large diameter bore. For small bore diameters, Knight offers a blue sabot that is packaged with these same bullets in their Ultimate Slam Series. It is our experience that sabots commonly used with flat base bullets produce very poor accuracy when used in conjunction with these boattail designs. Therefore, we don’t recommend that combination.

The newest addition to the Barnes line of muzzleloader bullets is the EZ loading T-EZ. These polymer tipped flat base 250gr and 290gr bullets come packaged with a thin blue sabot (MMP’s HPH 24) that works very well in the smaller bore diameters. We’ve also received positive feedback about the T-EZ in the .502” bores as packaged. The T-EZ bullets will work in large bore diameter guns when used with the HPH 12 sabot from MMP. Note that the blue sabot from Knight used in their Ulitimate Slam Series is only for the boattail version and the Blue T-EZ sabot from Barnes is used only for the flat base bullets.

To re-cap bullet and sabot packaging, the Barnes MZ Expander line is packaged with the MMP black HPH 12. The T-EZ is packaged with a blue version of MMP’s HPH 24; however, the MMP HPH 24 sold to consumers is black. The MMP HPH 12’s and HPH 24’s sold to consumers are both black and can be easily confused. Connie at MMP says the secret to telling them apart is by the number located in the hollow stepped base of the sabot. It is a hand written number for the HPH 12 and the HPH 24 has a more squared or typed number in the base.

That concludes our standard muzzleloader lineup and appropriate sabots for the various barrel diameters. However, we are always getting calls from folks that want something “outside the box.” The one 50 caliber combination that has gained a really large following is the Barnes 45/70 .458” 300gr Barnes Original Spitzer (#457010) coupled with the orange MMP sabot. It seems to load well in a variety of rifles and we’ve had numerous reports attesting to its potency and lethality.

Over the many years I’ve worked for Barnes, I’ve had the pleasure to listen to several hunting stories. The most common comment about the Barnes muzzleloader bullets is in regard to the fantastic penetration capabilities of these fine bullets and I quote “they leave a trail of blood that a blind man can follow”.

We thank you for your business – keep in touch.

Ty Herring
tyh@barnesbullets.com

[Jason]

I was looking at the Barnes 290grn TMZ's today. Man they are almost twice as much as the Hornady SST's. 33Bucks for a pack of 20. I think Im going to see how They shoot out of my BigHorn, Hearing about lots of 1 shot kills. I'll stick With 100grns of 777 though!

I bought some 290 TMZ's at Wholesale Sports for $22 for 20

Just found my receipt today, and I lied to skookumhntr, I apologize  
I paid $33 for a 24pk of .50cal TMZ's and Wholesale Sports.

[SkookumHntr]

Haha, I was thinking damn how the hell did I read that price tag wrong!