WDFW Points Bank Bill

[jackelope]

Here's the way I look at it.
I have 15 points....never drew my coveted Blues bull tag.
You have 10 points.
I die.
My kid gets my 15 points.
Now there's a kid ahead of you in the points pool thereby still killing your odds of drawing a tag. I understand it's my kid, but you're still down in the odds of drawing when you would have increased your odds when I died.
Fair is fair, and this ain't fair.

[bobcat]

YellowDog- it wouldn't be fair, simple as that. A person should have to build up their own points. I think it's crazy to even consider that points be transferable. If they did to something like this it also would not be fair that the points only be transferred to family members. What if the person has no family member who could use the points? And how would the WDFW verify the beneficiary actually was a family member? As I said before, we don't need to make it more complicated than it already is.

So its more fair for you to pay for something and never actually get anything in return?  Okay, your entitled to your opinion.  Wanna buy me something?  Maybe you could just give me $6 a year (times what is it now 13 different categories for deer and elk permits).  I promise I won't transfer it to anyone else and I will spend the money on myself.  I may have a different perspective than most because I work in the legal field administering estate's of people that have died.  Basically, my point is that if you pay a fee and receive something in return (points) you own them and you should decide what will happen to them when you die.  

You are getting something for your money every time you buy an application- you are getting a CHANCE of drawing a special permit hunt. The point you gained gives you better odds next time but you are not buying a point. This is just a ridiculous idea and I'm sure the WDFW would never consider it. Going through budget cuts right now and what do you think this would do? Maybe cost a lot of money to implement? I think so.

If they were to make points transferable it shouldn't only be when a person dies. They should be able to transfer them to anyone, at anytime. If they "own" the points then why not? And also, if you "own" the points, why not put them up for auction on eBay to the highest bidder?

See what I mean about complications?  

[YellowDog]

Do you get something back from the lotto when you buy a ticket? That's why I chose not to play the lotto!

No you don't get something back when you play the Lotto and that is exactly my point.  If you buy a Lotto ticket you are gambling.  If you enter the permit drawing you are both entering a raffle and buying a point in the event that you don't win the raffle.  You own the point, you bought it.  You did not only pay for the opportunity to be in the drawing, you paid ("bought") a point and you own it.  

[Elkaholic daWg]

Not for me either.

It is not complicated at all. It is our right.

Why do you say it's our right? We don't even have a "right" to hunt in this state. It is a priviledge.
This doesn't make any sense to me.

 So lets put our effort into fixing this one. then worry about points

[PolarBear]

I definitely won't support it.  I would love to be able to transfer my bonus points to my daughter but there is way too much room in this bill for corruption and abuse.  

[Alan K]

I'd help fill out all applications etc. (and pay for) all my non-hunter older relatives (born 1971 and earlier) to build ghost points.  They wouldn't have to do anything at all aside from leave them to my kids and I after they pass. 

I'd be rich with points!!! Yes please!

 

[YellowDog]

Not for me either.

It is not complicated at all. It is our right.

Why do you say it's our right? We don't even have a "right" to hunt in this state. It is a priviledge.
This doesn't make any sense to me.

 So lets put our effort into fixing this one. then worry about points

I agree, getting an amendment to our state constitution for the the right to hunt, as many other states have done recently, would be a much better use of our time.  For the record I am not actually "supporting" this bill I am simply saying that we are actually buying something more than the chance to enter the drawing and we should be treates as if we own the points.  If we own the points we should be able to transfer them at least on our death.  This is just one more example of our state taking our money and taking control of something we are paying for.  That is where the corruption is.

As for the fairness question, who really believes the system we have is fair?  If you are lucky enough to witness a poaching incident, call it in, get an officer to respond, catch the perp, get a prosecutor to get a convication, etc. you get 10 points.  You get a much better chance of drawing a tag for doing what you should be doing in the first place.  Fair??  I don't really think so.  Should you get a cash reward?  Maybe but why should you get to move to the front of the line in the drawing?  We all like to believe that because everyone is in the drawing and those with more points have their name in the drawing more times it is fair.  We have all heard the stories of people drawing the OIL permits with 0-3 points, drawing premium elk and deer permits year after year without building points, while the guy with 15 points gets nothing.  The truth is, the system we have is not fair so it is kind of comical to hear everyone saying ITS NOT FAIR when we are talking about something that you bought being controlled by the state.

[YellowDog]

I'd help fill out all applications etc. (and pay for) all my non-hunter older relatives (born 1971 and earlier) to build ghost points.  They wouldn't have to do anything at all aside from leave them to my kids and I after they pass. 

I'd be rich with points!!! Yes please!

 

You would be much better off hunting out of state.  It would cost you about $200 per person per year.  Paying that kind of money every year and waiting for those people to die wouldn't likely be a good investment.  You could spend the money much more wisely and actually get to hunt every few years. 

[bobcat]

It would be MORE unfair. Better?  

Here's the thing. Similar to what jackelope posted- if points were tranferred to a person's kids, grandkids, etc. at death, after a while the older guys who HAVE been applying for many years, would have a much reduced chance of drawing permits. Why make the odds worse for the older generation who MIGHT be able to draw that OIL permit before he's dead or too old to hunt? For the same reason, I don't agree with youth only permits for OIL species.

[jackelope]

As for the fairness question, who really believes the system we have is fair?  If you are lucky enough to witness a poaching incident, call it in, get an officer to respond, catch the perp, get a prosecutor to get a convication, etc. you get 10 points.  You get a much better chance of drawing a tag for doing what you should be doing in the first place.  Fair??  I don't really think so.  Should you get a cash reward?  Maybe but why should you get to move to the front of the line in the drawing?  We all like to believe that because everyone is in the drawing and those with more points have their name in the drawing more times it is fair.  We have all heard the stories of people drawing the OIL permits with 0-3 points, drawing premium elk and deer permits year after year without building points, while the guy with 15 points gets nothing.  The truth is, the system we have is not fair so it is kind of comical to hear everyone saying ITS NOT FAIR when we are talking about something that you bought being controlled by the state.

 

Whats the definition of fair?
I drew a great late quality muley permit this year with 4 points. Is that fair?
Yes and no. I think it's fair because it proves that anyone can draw a tag anytime. But I also think it's not fair because of the guys who put in for the permit I drew who had 10 or 12 or however many more points than I did.
I will put in for a buck(not quality) permit this year and have more than enough points to draw it based on the law of averages. I will have 2 great hunts back to back if I draw. Is that fair? What if I don't draw and someone with 2 points draws?
I see it all as fair as long as it's equal opportunity. This new proposal is not equal opportunity.

[Little Dave]

Mathematically, it wouldn't work.  Eventually, the only people drawn would be second or third generation participants in the drawing even without exponential weighting.  Also, the money is a same year commitment to the resource it is not a points investment.  The points program can end at any time without refund for your accumulation.  If points do have a value, you are required by law to report the capital gains, the difference between the price you paid and the fair market value of the points.  Let's not go there.

[Alan K]

You would be much better off hunting out of state.  It would cost you about $200 per person per year.  Paying that kind of money every year and waiting for those people to die wouldn't likely be a good investment.  You could spend the money much more wisely and actually get to hunt every few years.  

Wouldn't necessarily have to be all the different categories of every species.  Could be just the quality category points or OIL points.  Say I got all my remaining grandparents and great grandparents to put in for me and build points in all the quality and OIL categories who in all likely-hood don't have more than 10-15 years.  That's 5 people in 5 categories at $30 per person per year.  I'd gladly pay $1500 over 10 years to get (assuming 10 year average of putting in for me) 50 points in quality bull/buck and bull moose/goat/and ram sheep categories.

Still think it's cheaper to go out of state? Not a chance, you could hardly do a single species hunt in another state for that when you consider fuel and time off work, let alone non resident tag prices.

[YellowDog]

Jakalope and bobcat, I actually do not disagree with you.  My whole point is exactly what you are saying.  Everyone has a different idea of what "fair" is so in my opinion, the only "fair" way to go is to not have a points sytem at all.  Without a points system, everyone has exactly the same chance of drawing (roughly zero   percent).  Basically, we have been duped into the system that is inherently unfair because as we seem to agree, everyone has a different idea of what is fair so having a system like we have sucks the big one.  

I guess I'm sort of playing Devils Advocate and venting my frustration for being drawn for 2 elk and 1 deer permit since the system has been implemented when by the "law of averages" I should have been able to draw at least a couple more than that given what I have applied for.  Also, it really sucks for my disabled father who can't seem to draw a permit either with 7-8 points.  Its NOT FAIR  

[Alan K]

As for the fairness question, who really believes the system we have is fair?  If you are lucky enough to witness a poaching incident, call it in, get an officer to respond, catch the perp, get a prosecutor to get a convication, etc. you get 10 points.  You get a much better chance of drawing a tag for doing what you should be doing in the first place.  Fair??  I don't really think so.  Should you get a cash reward?  Maybe but why should you get to move to the front of the line in the drawing?  We all like to believe that because everyone is in the drawing and those with more points have their name in the drawing more times it is fair.  We have all heard the stories of people drawing the OIL permits with 0-3 points, drawing premium elk and deer permits year after year without building points, while the guy with 15 points gets nothing.  The truth is, the system we have is not fair so it is kind of comical to hear everyone saying ITS NOT FAIR when we are talking about something that you bought being controlled by the state.

If you're going out of your way to aid in stopping a poacher, who in all reality is not just a one time poacher, you're helping preserve the resource. I don't think it's unfair at all to give these people some kickback for helping save animals and busting a criminal.

And points aren't meant to be an end all be all, or the tags would simply go to those with the most points. This system gives those who have put in the longest a better chance than those who have put in for a shorter time, not necessarily guarantee them the tag.  That's the beauty of this state over max point states.  Our children are not screwed for ever drawing a premier tag.

[YellowDog]

You would be much better off hunting out of state.  It would cost you about $200 per person per year.  Paying that kind of money every year and waiting for those people to die wouldn't likely be a good investment.  You could spend the money much more wisely and actually get to hunt every few years.  

Wouldn't necessarily have to be all the different categories of every species.  Could be just the quality category points or OIL points.  Say I got all my remaining grandparents and great grandparents to put in for me and build points in all the quality and OIL categories who in all likely-hood don't have more than 10-15 years.  That's 5 people in 5 categories at $30 per person per year.  I'd gladly pay $1500 over 10 years to get (assuming 10 year average of putting in for me) 50 points in quality bull/buck and bull moose/goat/and ram sheep categories.

Still think it's cheaper to go out of state? Not a chance, you could hardly do a single species hunt in another state for that when you consider fuel and time off work, let alone non resident tag prices.

I think your math is wrong.  You have to buy the hunting license and tag BEFORE putting in for the permit so it is a lot more expensive than you think but that's okay.  Besides, you would have a better chance of drawing but you wouldn't be guaranteed a tag.