new info on 4 pt restriction

[TeacherMan]

How many 3 pt WT do you really see? I see spikes and forks and then generally 3x4 or 4x4 on up. very few 3 points unless they are forks with little eye guards. Let the little guys walk. Maybe a few less people will travel from the westside if it happens    

[Ridgeratt]

they should let youth shoot 2pt and adults shoot 4pt so kids like me get a taste

What would be a bonus for you is upon the completion of your hunter's ed class and graduating the WDFG would issue the youth a (complimentry) open tag to harvest any deer. Regardless of species. It would give the youth a chance to fill a tag. If that year they weren't successful they could turn the tag back in and be reissued for the following year. Once the tag was punched the youth would be in the same pool as the rest. When I used to hit the deer park game check and talked to several folks. Seems at times we have proud fathers and hush mouth kid's.   

[TeacherMan]

they should let youth shoot 2pt and adults shoot 4pt so kids like me get a taste

What would be a bonus for you is upon the completion of your hunter's ed class and graduating the WDFG would issue the youth a (complimentry) open tag to harvest any deer. Regardless of species. It would give the youth a chance to fill a tag. If that year they weren't successful they could turn the tag back in and be reissued for the following year. Once the tag was punched the youth would be in the same pool as the rest. When I used to hit the deer park game check and talked to several folks. Seems at times we have proud fathers and hush mouth kid's.    

thats funny 

[sakoshooter]

oh god I just see the scouting pics of all the dead three pts that'll turn up 

I heard that a lot when the 3pt min was first introduced. I know it happens once in a while unfortunately but it sure improved the branched antler mule deer population. I'm sure it'd do the same for the whitetail population. Hunters just need to make darn sure of what they're shooting at.
With that said, what 4pt restriction are you talking about?

[muleyguy]

All the WDFW people I have talked to are against the proposal

there all against it because they know its a failed policy;  all it is going to do is exacerbate the problem;  sure, it will result in an increase in 1.5 yr old animals;  but, it will result in a decrease of 3.5 yr old animals and older;

all that will happen is the harvest will shift to 2.5 yr old animals;  you will have an increase in bucks, but, they will just be 1.5 yr old bucks;  yes, in a year there will be more 2.5 yr old bucks to shoot, but over time, there will also be less 3.5 yr old bucks also;

so, at best, it is a very short term "fix" to get a few more bucks into the population; 

The real problem, and why I suspect that the WDFW is against it, is because the real problem comes when you want to "unwind" the antler pt restriction;

what happens in a few years is almost ALL of your bucks are in the 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old class;  so, what do you think happens when they want to try and  get rid of it?

They CAN'T.........because it would be a wholesale slaughter of bucks because the population is made up of yearling bucks.....and, you find yourself right back where you where to begin with.....

So, they get trapped into the antler pt restriction management scheme, and, slowly, over the years, the number of truly mature animals in the population slowly erodes because you are focusing the harvest on older age class animals;  there is also evidence to suggest that part of the long term problem in deer herds (more muleys then whitetail) is the fact that the age structure of the bucks is all screwed up;

mother nature set it up so that "mature" animals would do the majority of the breeding;  man has shifted this into lower age class animals, especially in mule deer herds;

if buck to doe ratio's are off, or, if the age class of bucks is off, gimmicks like shooting more does to increase the buck to doe ratio (which is insane......) or gimmicks like antler pt restrictions do not solve the longer term underlying problem......

this state is stuck in a management quagmire from the 3 pt antler restrictions on mule deer;  over the long run, it does not increase the buck numbers, only the year of harvest, and it actually hurts the mature animals;  the WDFW can't unwind the antler restritions because it would dramatically lower buck populations, so what do they do?  Shorten the season; 

we know have 3pt better rules and a 9 day mule deer season, and nothing is better;

where are they going to next??  heck, lets make it 5 pt or better and shorten the season to 3 days........thats where this management scheme is  going.......

here's a better idea:

cut the tag numbers by 1/3;  lengthen the season out to spread the hunter numbers;  get rid of these antler pt gimicks;


you get to hunt 2/3 years;  you get a longer season;  less hunting pressure, and the buck numbers and maturity level in the buck population is better;

but, nope......not this state, its our god given right to hunt every year.......

[bowhunterforever]

All the WDFW people I have talked to are against the proposal

there all against it because they know its a failed policy;  all it is going to do is exacerbate the problem;  sure, it will result in an increase in 1.5 yr old animals;  but, it will result in a decrease of 3.5 yr old animals and older;

all that will happen is the harvest will shift to 2.5 yr old animals;  you will have an increase in bucks, but, they will just be 1.5 yr old bucks;  yes, in a year there will be more 2.5 yr old bucks to shoot, but over time, there will also be less 3.5 yr old bucks also;

so, at best, it is a very short term "fix" to get a few more bucks into the population; 

The real problem, and why I suspect that the WDFW is against it, is because the real problem comes when you want to "unwind" the antler pt restriction;

what happens in a few years is almost ALL of your bucks are in the 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old class;  so, what do you think happens when they want to try and  get rid of it?

They CAN'T.........because it would be a wholesale slaughter of bucks because the population is made up of yearling bucks.....and, you find yourself right back where you where to begin with.....

So, they get trapped into the antler pt restriction management scheme, and, slowly, over the years, the number of truly mature animals in the population slowly erodes because you are focusing the harvest on older age class animals;  there is also evidence to suggest that part of the long term problem in deer herds (more muleys then whitetail) is the fact that the age structure of the bucks is all screwed up;

mother nature set it up so that "mature" animals would do the majority of the breeding;  man has shifted this into lower age class animals, especially in mule deer herds;

if buck to doe ratio's are off, or, if the age class of bucks is off, gimmicks like shooting more does to increase the buck to doe ratio (which is insane......) or gimmicks like antler pt restrictions do not solve the longer term underlying problem......

this state is stuck in a management quagmire from the 3 pt antler restrictions on mule deer;  over the long run, it does not increase the buck numbers, only the year of harvest, and it actually hurts the mature animals;  the WDFW can't unwind the antler restritions because it would dramatically lower buck populations, so what do they do?  Shorten the season; 

we know have 3pt better rules and a 9 day mule deer season, and nothing is better;

where are they going to next??  heck, lets make it 5 pt or better and shorten the season to 3 days........thats where this management scheme is  going.......

here's a better idea:

cut the tag numbers by 1/3;  lengthen the season out to spread the hunter numbers;  get rid of these antler pt gimicks;


you get to hunt 2/3 years;  you get a longer season;  less hunting pressure, and the buck numbers and maturity level in the buck population is better;

but, nope......not this state, its our god given right to hunt every year.......

IMO,I don't think that theory is right at all. Over time i think we will see more & more 3 1/2 and older bucks as time progresses with 4 point or better in the NE corner. When whitetails get older they get ALOT smarter and therefore live longer and  become very nocturnal.I hope they pass the 4 point rule

[bobcat]

All the WDFW people I have talked to are against the proposal

3 days........thats where this management scheme is  going.......

here's a better idea:

cut the tag numbers by 1/3;  lengthen the season out to spread the hunter numbers;  get rid of these antler pt gimicks;


you get to hunt 2/3 years;  you get a longer season;  less hunting pressure, and the buck numbers and maturity level in the buck population is better;

but, nope......not this state, its our god given right to hunt every year.......

 Well said! I wish you would go to work for the WDFW.

[muleyguy]

IMO,I don't think that theory is right at all. Over time i think we will see more & more 3 1/2 and older bucks as time progresses with 4 point or better in the NE corner. When whitetails get older they get ALOT smarter and therefore live longer and  become very nocturnal.I hope they pass the 4 point rule

well, here is the data from various places across the US on antler pt restrictions:

WA biologist talking about Whitetail antler pt restrictions in Oregon:

"Biologists are concerned that forcing all the harvest to mature bucks could have the consequence of reducing the number of bucks reaching five-point or larger size – as it did in Oregon before that state dropped its brief fling with whitetail antler point restrictions."


Data from the Whitetail Institute:

"Where it has been instituted, either through regulations or through voluntary cooperation by clubs and individual hunters, antler restrictions have resulted in more bigger bucks in the entire population. Bigger, however, is a relative term. Data compiled by the PGC shows that while yearling bucks are indeed surviving at higher rates, most are being harvested the first year they are legal. Prior to the new rules, about 20 percent of the total buck harvest consisted of mature (two years or older) deer. Now, 2-1/2-year-old bucks make up 75 percent of Pennsylvania’s “mature” buck harvest."



"After examining the effect of antler restrictions for 14 years, biologists in Mississippi found that selective harvest of bucks with at least four points on one side resulted in a reduction in bucks with larger antlers in subsequent years. In other words, the best bucks were being taken out of the population early because they grew legal antlers at younger ages than lower-quality bucks of the same age. Called “high-grading,” it ultimately resulted in an overall decline in antler size of 3 1/2-year old and older bucks. It’s happening mostly on public property where hunting pressure is high and hunters are still less willing to let a legal deer pass."



“We were seeing a decrease in antler quality because the poor-quality yearling bucks were doing most of the breeding. By increasing the overall antler quality, we expect to see a long-term increase in antler size as well as a shorter breeding season,” he explains. “When we had the four-point rule in place, the breeding season was lasting as long as 50 days and we saw some fawns born as late as October. That’s not a sign of a healthy deer herd.”


Like I explained, it will simply result in a shift from 1.5 yr old animals to 2.5 yr old animals;  it will reduce the numbers of truly mature bucks in the population because it focus harvest on the older age classes and it is taking out the bucks with the best genetics.

It's not a soultion, its a gimmick....

the reason it is so "popular" with sportsmen, and why they mistakenly "think" it is creating larger bucks is because most hunters all they have ever shot in their life is 1.5 yr old bucks, and a few older ones;   with antler pt restrictions, they are now shooting 2.5 yr old animals instead of 1.5 yr olds;  basket racked, 2.5 yr old 4pt whitetails are not mature bucks;   19" basket racked, 2.5 yr old, mule deer, while they might look great in your rifle scope, are not mature mule deer.

yes, you shift harvest to deer 1 yr older, and yes, a 2.5 yr old buck has a bigger rack;  but, the consequences of achieving this slight gain in buck quality comes at a heavy price.

[Miles]

That stopped the thread quick.


Maybe some people are thinking....

[jackmaster]

i hope they make it 3pt min for blacktail except youth and seniors let them shoot spikes and 2 pts but everyone else 3pt or better

[Miles]

i hope they make it 3pt min for blacktail except youth and seniors let them shoot spikes and 2 pts but everyone else 3pt or better

This proposal has nothing to do with blacktail.

[1bugman]

So like I thought this has NOTHING to do with deer, just more BS politics.

[jackmaster]

i hope they make it 3pt min for blacktail except youth and seniors let them shoot spikes and 2 pts but everyone else 3pt or better

This proposal has nothing to do with blacktail.

ok, well its still my opinion,maybe we will get lucky and they will make that a proposal as well, wouldnt that be SWEET?

[muleyguy]

the other key component that is wrong in the management scheme is the amount of antlerless deer being shot;  they don't have the 2010 numbers up, and I know they cut the antlerless opportunities back in 2010;

but, in 2009,  1,390 antlerless deer were killed in region 1;  of which almost all I would suppose are whitetails;  I am sure it is lower in 2010, but, looking at the Regulations for 2010 shows continued all kinds of antlerless opportunities in region 1 for 2010;

if you want to get more bucks, and older bucks, in the population, you need to stop killing the does.......unless the habitat is at carrying capacity, which it isn't.

when you run the math of how many more bucks there would be in the population after 5 yrs if these 1,390 does weren't killed, it looks pretty shocking;

I understand that there are areas in region 1 that have high concentrations of whitetails, but, this is ALL private ground;  if you are going to give out antlerless tags, target them to private land;

but, once again, this requires a sacrifice on the part of the hunting community. 

antlerless tags in WA should be the exception instead of the norm which they have become;  when deer numbers are high, then it is fine to provide some extra opportunities;  but, the reality is that in most years in WA deer populations are below objective;

instead, we are subjected to things like antler pt restrictions and shortened seasons to try and fix the problem;  all the while, our deer herds slowly erode;

I know it sounds like heresy to think that 1 out of every 3 years you couldn't go hunting, but, ask yourself, how good is the experience right now??  Shortened seasons, antler pt restrictions, massive pressure on public ground, etc, etc.

Project out 10 yrs....does anybody really think anything is going to get any better???  The management scheme of antlerless opportuniteis and antler pt restrictions is only going to put more pressure on reducing season length;

cut harvest by 1/3;  lengthen the season, get rid of antler pt restrictions;  and, I can guarantee you that the quality of the experience would triple;  2 great experiences instead of 3 terrible ones.

[bearpaw]

muleyguy I will agree with part of what you say, but I must respectfully say I also think you are off base with part of your ideas.

It is pretty universally agreed that doe harvest should only occur when populations are at carrying capacity and used to maintain deer numbers or reduce deer numbers. I agree, doe deer need protected while herds are depressed. Our advisory group shares that opinion.

For the record there are plenty of studies indicating point restrictions do work. We can play a game of showing various studies from around the country to support the argument either way, but I think what matters are the conditions involved in the hunt area. As bowhunterforever stated, whitetail bucks get smarter when they get older and NE WA has plenty of cover for the smart bucks to hide in. So I honestly think your analysis is very incorrect due to the conditions in NE WA.

The goal of this proposal is to reduce buck harvest now to help the herds while at the same time maintaining reasonable hunter opportunity. What some of you fail to understand is that there are a lot of local hunters who simply hunt where they live here in NE WA. They do not travel around the state hunting, what about all the kids who hunt out the back door, you put deer on a draw and you will stop these kids from hunting.

All we are asking for is two units for 5 years, analize the effects of the rule, reassess the effects after 5 years, and then move forward with the best management policy. At the end of 5 years if data shows that the APR did not work, then it should not be continued. We may learn that it worked well for 2 or 3 years and then is not needed. It may be a sensational sucess and everyone wants it contunued.

I can tell you this for absolute certain and you can not say this is wrong:  "If the state is too narrow minded to try an APR in NE WA, we will never know if it would have worked or not worked."

Please answer these questions:

If APR's don't work then why do we have them all over the state?

If you are saying they don't work, then why don't we remove them all?