Author Topic: 600 Yard shot :) (Read 9273 times)

Heetor · « **on:** November 02, 2011, 08:16:55 AM »

Hey guys, I wanted to bounce an idea off of some of the bear experts on this site to see get some feedback on taking a long shot.

I have been hunting an area on Whatcom county for bear this year that is pretty reliable. I have been on bear 4 out of the 5 times I have gone out there. My lucky spot is a tough little corner to get to on DNR land, it requires about a 2 hour hike uphill to get to a large old clear cut that spans between two high hill peaks.

Since it is pretty rough to get up to this spot I don't think anyone other then me goes up there, (crazy or dumb), but the closest I can get to this clearing is the hilltop over looking it which gives me a 200 yard shot to the front edge of the clearing and about 1000 yard shot to the back edge. I can get in there to quarter the bear and get it out, it would take four 2 mile roundtrips to get the quarters to where I can get a quad into, so it seems reasonable to take the bear if I can make the shot.

Last Saturday there was a couple of bears in the cut, one was a real beauty, it would have been the largest bear I had ever taken. My range finder wouldn't give me a range on him as he was too far away, but I was estimating 600 yards. I had 30 minutes to take the shot as he was milling around feeding working his way up the hillside, but that is a long poke to take.

I wanted to get some expert feedback on a couple of things, the first is how strange is it to see 2 bears in one clearing, about 400 yards apart and feeding, but seemingly ignoring each other. I have never seen two bears on one hillside before, does this happen very often?

The second and more important is some feedback on setting up the shot. I own a few rifles so I have some choices, 45-70, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag. Based on the ballistics it looks like the 300 or 338 at that range as both can maintain 2000 FPS in 180 to 200 grain bullets at 600 yards.

The drop I can deal with I shoot with Redfield scopes that have varied markers for the range, I would need to fine tune a little but I think it is doable. Unfortunately I don't know of any 600 yard rifle ranges to practice the shot at

If I am going to try this shot there are a couple of things I have to get comfortable with:

1) Windage, I have no idea how to compensate for the cross wind at this distance without using a wind gauge and a laptop?

2) Angle, any pointers on accounting for the effect of shooting down hill at this distance and how to compensate for it in the drop of the bullet.

3) What kind of velocity/Energy do you need to double lung a large black bear, would 2031/1650 get it done (300 win mag at 600 yards)

4) Anything else I am missing that I should try to factor into this shot, I am sure there is

This is a special animal that I probably won't see when I go out next weekend, but if I do I would hate to wound it and not be able to recover it or loose the chance to go after it next year.

Any other advice from guys that have tried and had success with long shots? Is this shot feasible for a regular shooter without specialized equipment? I passed on the shot this weekend, (I was hunting with my slug gun, love the gun but she is a short range smasher), but I would really like to try and prepare for it before the closing of the season. 350 yards is the longest kill shot I have made, and I usually try to work closer on anything other over 300 yards.

Thanks guys...

jackelope · « **Reply #1 on:** November 02, 2011, 08:29:21 AM »

If you have not shot 600 then you don't know how your rifle performs at that range, therefore you shouldn't be shooting at that range is my .02 which you asked for. 300 yards is one thing but 600 is a whole new ball of wax. If your rifle shoots 1.5" at 100 yards then you're talking about a 9-10" group at 600 plus wind drift which, again, is a whole new ball of wax.

BOWHUNTER45 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 02, 2011, 08:34:43 AM »

I am not saying much on this one other than it depends on the shooter ...to many things come into play on shooting long distances on bear ...I use a .270 and have taken my share from close to out there ...I also always shoot for shoulders on bear and it has caused some disagreement to some on here but I have proven it time and time again so no one will ever change my mind ...if a .270 with 140 gr bullet can drop them everytime within a few yards of where I shot them then imagine what a bigger gun will do with say 180 gr bullet ( drop them like a bad habit ) I always recommend braking a bear down so you are not chasing them threw heavy cover..if you need to shoot twice then so be it but he is not going no where!! and for as seeing more than one bear in a cut is not unusual ...I have seen 7 in October one year in one cut but no way to get there ....surrounded by rock cliffs ..huge Oregon grape patch !! good luck ...love to see what those bear look like now

Heetor · « **Reply #3 on:** November 02, 2011, 08:36:36 AM »

Yeah that is about what I thought, a risky shot without being able to practice it, plus the windage. Missing would be fine, but if I hit him in the gut, that would be a terrible waste of of that animal, thanks for the $.02.

Machias · « **Reply #4 on:** November 02, 2011, 10:01:47 AM »

My advice, don't do it. Every night you close your eyes you'll be thinking about a bad shot, at least if you have half a heart you will. You owe to the bear and yourself to close the distance. You can figure a way out, keep at it and good luck.

h20hunter · « **Reply #5 on:** November 02, 2011, 10:06:01 AM »

Bears are habitual. They will be there next year. Find a place, learn your rifle at that distance, practice, then next year take the shot and get it done.

GoldTip · « **Reply #6 on:** November 02, 2011, 10:10:20 AM »

I would tend to agree with Machias, if it is well beyond the range you have practiced to, then simply don't take the shot. I understand the temptation. but way to many variables in it for you. There are guys who can make that shot all day long, but they usually have rifles specific for that kind of job and they are well in tune with that rifle, and 600 yards isn't barely a warm up for them. You've already stated you are not one of them by knowing the variables you are not comfortable with. You'll sleep better at night trying to somehow close the distance to a range you are comfortable shooting and blowing the stalk, then you would be if you take a shot like this and wound and not recover the bear.

TheHunt · « **Reply #7 on:** November 02, 2011, 11:15:16 AM »

If you have not practiced at that distance and have your gun dialed in you should not pull the trigger. This is one of those times that you will need to practice for future hunts under situations of extreme angles with and with out wind.

Goldeneye · « **Reply #8 on:** November 02, 2011, 11:32:39 AM »

There are some long distance ranges around. Seattle Rifle and Pistol association in Machias comes to mind. At times they will open up a 500 yard range. I'm on the wait list to get in there. I have practiced out to 500 yards with hand loads before and do understand what my particular rifle does with loads at that range. I shoot a 300 WM with 180 gr Barnes.

Once in my hunting career I killed a bull near the range you are talking about (ranged at 585 yards). I shot twice, only because I did not see the reaction I always see after I punch a bull. He tipped over after the 2nd shot. Turns out the bullets hit about a fists distance apart and both hit the heart. The issue is at that range is the down field energy is quickly going away and you do not have that shock factor you would at closer range. Because of this I doubt I will ever take that shot again even though I was successful this time. It's just not worth it because you don't have the performance unless your shooting something like an Ultra-mag or one of the other cannons.

krism83 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 02, 2011, 12:33:39 PM »

While I agree that to shoot a distance like that confidently you need to practice, practice, practice. I can offer this little piece of info in case you find yourself in a situation like that. Short of having an Anemometer with you to get exact wind speeds break it into values of 10 (easiest way to multiply and divide on the fly), then it is a pretty simple math formula: Range in 100 yards x wind speed in MPH = ?? / math constant = MOA windage...so lets say you are taking your 600 yard shot in a 15 mph wind your formula would look like this: 6x15=90/14=6.4 MOA. A quick (yet not perfect) MOA reference is 1 inch for every 100 yards, making your shot 38.4 MOA off center mass. Any scope worth its weight will have a windage knob adjustable in 1/4 MOA clicks making your center mass adjustment 26 clicks and aim center mass.

Or, practice...a lot...and then practice more. I am pretty confident in hitting anything out to 800 yards, but I have sent thousands of rounds downrange through my .300 WM.

Helix · « **Reply #10 on:** November 02, 2011, 12:37:20 PM »

having stated what you did about your shooting practice I would not consider taking that shot at an unknown 600ish yard range. No way, no how. Knowing to a certainty what range you are shooting at is step one. In this ball park you can have a big big error in 50 yards of miscalculated range.

Now on to your other questions. Rifle choice. 45/70 is a bad choice at 600 yards. Look at a good drop table. Even with the highest BC bullets for 45/70 that I have found (hornady ftx leverevolution) at 600yards that bullet is really plunging and has long before become trans-sonic and therefore very difficult to predict. With no solid range figure this is almost impossible. If you knew the exact range it would just be very, very difficult. I have seen expert marksmen make 1000 yard vitals hits with 45/70 long rifles but they knew the exact range.

.338 Win mag would be my choice to practice long range shooting/hunting with. It will have the best down range performance of the rifles you mentioned. But that is with equal accuracy from each, and I don't know anything about your actual rifles or your shooting.

Windage and angle: If you are going to think about shooting this far, at game or just targets, get a balistics calculator program for your smart phone or a stand alone balistics calculator. I use an excel spreadsheet published by jackson rifles, using Art Pjesta's formulas and I run that on my android phone. It will do a good job of providing you a shooting solution but it is only as good as the data points you put in: range, bullet muzzel velocity, BC, Altitude, Humidity, angle, wind speed and direction...

Also, you actually have to confirm the data you get by practicing at that range. You either have to learn to mill range, which is difficult to impossible without a known size object in the ballpark of your target, or buy a better range finder. One that can range out to 600 yards on non-reflective surfaces will probably cost you $400-600. If you want it to be able to range non-reflective targets at 1000 yards it will be double that or more. The $100-200 range finders are not capable of doing this. They will only range at this distance on something reflective and roughly the size of a house. Not very helpful in a clear cut.

For angle compensation get yourself a cosine angle indicator and mount it on your scope, learn the formulas for compensating for angles. The very basic rule is if you are shooting at an angle aim low. The balistic distance is always less than the laser ranged distance. This is easy to envision if you picture a right triangle. You are lasering the longest side, the hypotenuse, the range you want to dial in is the side perpendicular to verticle.

If you are going to get a cosine indicator also pick up a scope level. Even just a 15 degree cant of your rifle will be hard to detect without a vertical object in your target zone but is enough to spoil your shot at that range.

For wind, the only thing that will get you there is practice, practice and more practice. Using a spotting scope to read mirage is probably the best technique, and using a kestral type weather station will get you data for where you are sitting but won't tell you jack about out in the gap between you and the target.

IF you spend the next year practicing every chance you get at reading wind and doping long range shots you might be able to get yourself ready for such a shot. Good luck to you.

TheHunt · « **Reply #11 on:** November 02, 2011, 12:57:08 PM »

Great details Helix...

And exactly what you need to do. I would stick with the 338. I like the heavy bullets because they do not react as much to wind and they pack a bigger punch at the end.

carpsniperg2 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:07:10 PM »

Shoot it and prove the shot on paper. The 300 wm has plenty of ke to take a bear at that range. You are still inside of the minimum for fps to make most bullets expand, which is right at 1800 fps. Wind is going to be a solid factor at that range. If you are just using a hold over you need to figure out on paper, just what your rifle is doing before you want to punch a big critter like a bear. As for seeing multiple bears in the same areas. If you are in a heavy populated area its not that uncommon, during the right time of year you can see a lot of pair's with a boar and a sow.

Heredoggydoggy · « **Reply #13 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:40:35 PM »

Two words: Stalking Skills!

Helix · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:52:57 PM »

I forgot to mention with angle shooting. You can't use the compensated range in your wind calculation or you will mess it up. The angle compensated number only works for drop. You have to use the lasered range. It's a small point but it will be a lot easier to get good wind dope if you know this up front.

Heetor · « **Reply #15 on:** November 03, 2011, 09:14:06 AM »

Thanks guys there is some really valuable advice in here. I appreciate the ethics of the hunters on this site, the attitude where I grew up hunting would have been, "just fire at fur" or "throw enough rounds at it and something will hit it". I thought I would get at least a couple of replies like that, I was pleased I didn't.

Being a bow hunter I constantly have to pass on shots that are outside my skill limit, sometimes it hurts but it has to be done, so I am pretty familiar with letting the big one walk to get a crack at him another day. I got into bow hunting specifically for the challenge, in Tennessee we hunt heavy bush out of tree stands so rifle shots are 50 yards or less and off of a rest, which is a good way to get antlers on the wall, but has more to do with where you hang your stand as opposed to hunting skills. I use riffles for moose, bear and elk, which is why I have a small collection, but have never pondered long range shooting until I found this big cut that has so many bears in it.

I only moved up to Washington in July, so hunting this big country is still something I have to get my head around. This country is the real deal, hiking miles up mountains through bush so thick you can't see, dealing with wind, rain, snow and whatever else the weather gods throw at us, butchering game in the bush and hauling it out on your back, this stuff is like a drug to a hunting addict. A far cry from relaxing and drinking coffee in a deer stand while waiting for the big one to walk out and sniff your decoy.

Anyway this thread has helped me a lot. My ethics are in the right place, I don't take shots at animals I am not confident I can take cleanly. I just got a couple of earfuls when moose hunting in Canada two weeks ago for passing on a bull at 50 yards that was dead away from me, but he walked off and never gave me any better angle. There was no way to put a clean shot into it so I passed, and I would do it again, though I might keep my mouth shut at camp the next time

I think the issue I have is not respecting/understanding the skill required to reliably shoot a rifle at distances that long, this thread has opened my eyes a little. Based on the feedback I think some of you could sense my ignorance. Yes I did believe that I could run down to Dave's spend a few hundred bucks on gear and a day practicing the shot and be ready for it, you may all laugh at me now

Anyway this is really exciting stuff, a new challenge and 9 months to figure out if I am up to it! Should fill in the off season gap nicely. Hopefully I can get some more feedback from the panel to help me get ready for it.

Rifle: I agree with the responders that suggested the .338 win mag for the long range shots, of all my rifles this is the one closest setup for this kind of thing. I shoot a Tika T3 with Leupold Mark 2 scope and rings. My preferred round is the Hornady GMX in 185 grains, though I do shoot the 225 as well.

Range Finder: I have the Wildgame unit, this one is going to need an upgrade as it doesn't pick up reads outside of 200 yards. It has been fine for bow hunting, but not going to make it here. Any advice on models people have had good success with at longer ranges would be appreciated.

Ballistics calculator app for smart phone: I have seen this on TV but have no practical knowledge here. I do carry a smart phone in the bush as a backup GPS, but if someone has a recommendation for iphone or droid smart phones let me know. I usually tape the ballistics table for my load to the stock of my gun so I can glance at it when I need it, but that does nothing for elevation and wind.

Cosine angle indicator: No idea on this one, does anyone have some advice on equipment like this they have had good success with? I know that bow hunters use range finders that compensate for the angle and display a shot distance corrected for the angle, anyone ever seen something like this for long range rifle shooting?

Wind is still a mystery: Still not sure how to account for this other than practice, but there was a mention of a Kestral Weather Station, or gauging mirage with a spotting scope. I don't know a damn thing about this but will start with some research here, pointers would be appreciated.

Anyway thanks for the tips and I would appreciate a few more

Helix · « **Reply #16 on:** November 03, 2011, 10:28:06 AM »

Heetor, Glad to hear you are getting interested in the long range shooting game. I myself am started down this road but by no means at its pinnacle. One book I've devoured on this topic is: The Ultimate Sniper http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Sniper-Advanced-Training-Military/dp/1581604947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320339800&sr=8-1

You can ignore the military style tactics in the book but the shooting info is great. It will even give you some ideas to guide your practice sessions, rifle set up, log books, the works.

For balistics calculators there are lots of them on the market. I wouldn't just buy any app of the android or iphone market. The formula behind the scenes is as important as the data points you put in. I've been experimenting with an excel version of Art Pjestas formulas. You can find it here.

http://www.jacksonrifles.com/ballistics.htm

Pjesta also wrote several books on Long range balistics. I've read a few of his papers but have yet to get his books but they might be worth the read for you too.

I've heard Exbal is a good program as is the nightforce pocket pc program. Then there is the Barret Bors system which does a lot of the data gathering for you including angle and atmospheric info other than wind. I've played with one but never had a chance to shoot with it. It may even be compatible with your leupold scope. Not sure.

The level and cosine or degree indicator you use will largely be determined by they way you have your rifle set up. and what computer software you use. since I have a vortex scope on my 300 WM I have this level:
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-30mm-riflescope-tube-bubble-level

Angle indicators tend to be a little spendy so I have not picked one up yet. It's on my list.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/615767/badger-ordnance-angle-cosine-indicator-kit-with-generation-2-picatinny-style-mount-aluminum-matte Get one that works with your preferred computer.

halflife65 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 03, 2011, 10:32:34 AM »

Interesting. Tracking...tracking...so I can look up when I get home.

TheHunt · « **Reply #18 on:** November 03, 2011, 10:57:34 AM »

Not to take this tread a different direction but I wonder how many people would be interested in a Saturday class on teaching these techniques?

Bean Counter · « **Reply #19 on:** November 03, 2011, 11:07:47 AM »

+1 for Maj. Plaster's treatise "The Ultimate Sniper."

demontang · « **Reply #20 on:** November 03, 2011, 02:36:17 PM »

I have worked up a load for my .338win for out to 600yds, and practiced a lot at the range in different winds. There realy is no way to just go out a few times and the shot an animal at that range. I have a 225gr accubond with a bc of .550 moving out at 2800 fps with a 250yd zero which at 600yds is 65.2" of drop and with a 10mph wind drifts 24.7". It will hit with 1890fps and 1785ftlbs which will ring a bears bell pretty good still. Now look at 630yds 75.6" drop and 27.6" drift with 1850fps and 1710ftlb, then 660yds 86.9"drop and 30.6"drift with 1810fps and 1638ftlbs. Know the range is key at long range cause saying 600yds and it being 630 can be a miss or a wounded animal. Go practice and get it dialed in and just stik to 300yds tell you do. I have limited myself to 350yds this year cause I havent shot that much this year. O and I would say use a high bc bullet or your drop and windage will be way different like a 180gr accubond moving 3100fps, drops 63.3" and drifts 34.7" at 600yds but with 1208ftlbs remaning

jackmaster · « **Reply #21 on:** November 03, 2011, 03:25:02 PM »

shootn a bear that far is a bad idea period unless you take a high shoulder shot, which you still gotta go check no matter what but a high shoulder shot puts them on the deck, my son just got his first and it was a big blackie, he used the high shoulder shot and put it right down, now when we skinned him i showed him exactly why you really need to anchor the bear, had my sons bear ran off there would have been zero blood do to the amount of fat when we got the skin off it appeared to have zero damage until we cut the fat away and then the damage was amazing, all in all if your 100% comfortable with taken long shots then by all means go ahead but you owe it to the critter to use the right amount of gun and ammo to do the job and just remember bear are one of the hardest animals to track...

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Author Topic: 600 Yard shot :) (Read 9273 times)

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