The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[bobcat]

We've been living with 3PT APR on muledeer since the '97 season...that's 14 years.   See how hard it is to get a restriction lifted once it's in place in WA??!!!

The WDFW wanted to do away with the 3 point restriction but hunters voted to keep it. The biologists have said it's no longer necessary but for some reason they go with public opinion instead of what their biologists recommend.

You mean the Commission, don't you? Not the WDFW.

I don't recall ever being asked to vote for or against continuing the 3-pt B/A restriction?  This was when?

It was in one of the online surveys a few years ago.

And no, I don't mean the Commission. The biologists work for the WDFW and they are the ones who said the 3 point restriction was no longer necessary.

[Special T]

Dave i think you prove that a 1 prong approach will only has a small short gain. That said, attacking this issue on many levels  predators, more boots on the ground etc.
will likely have a more meaningful effect. What we lack is LEADERSHIP not studies.

Could you sort of translate this a little more?
 

I guess what i mean is If you use APR as a means of creating escapement you are only using one tool in the bag to do the job. APR's do help but they are not a magic bullet.  You cannot fix the overall picture by changing one thing.

Ever tried to loose weight? For it to be effective you cannot just cut out dessert and expect to get the body of a body builder.. Often times it requires you to change Most of what you are currently doing.  Excerize, eat better, drink more water etc. you can get a little healthier by doing just a little but it won't get you where you want to go.

I think APR's And QDM ARE good, HOWEVER it is to get that next 10% once you already have a pretty healthy herd...  High fenced operations are like a science test where they can control most of the variables and see the change as a result.  The wild deer can benifit from the same management (I believe) But is much less effective...
http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/certification-program-readings/qdm-and-coyotes/
This article talks about the studied effects of coyotes on WT It goes the gambit on providing differing food sources to trapping and hunting. Since it come from the QDM web site it is obviously an objective.

This state has hamstrung itself by outlawing hound hunting, trapping, running curs on coyotes, reduce the about of timber harvest on Forest service land (Not state controlled i know).  and more.. I would guess your frustration is much like mine. The state uses studies and research like APR's QDM practices etc to dig them selves out of this hole when its not possible. I often hear excuses from the WDFW not leadership. If the WDFW really had hunters intrests at heart why would they not direct us to help repeal BS laws or find ways to work within them to accomplish the same things?
Hopefully i explained myself better this time. 

[Dave Workman]

the push to use data from Eastern US whitetail herds experience with APR's to justify their use on NE WA whitetail herds is simply flawed; 

(snip)
We don't have that option here because the problem with our whitetail herds is vastly different;  our problem is not one of age structure or even buck to doe ratio, it is simply a problem of the herd being under so much pressure from winter kill and predators.   

If you dig into the research on these APR's several facts become apparant;  one, is they simply move the avg harvest date up from a 1.5 yr old animal to a 2.5 yr old animal:
(snip)
You want to help the herds??  Get rid of ALL antlerless tags until the herd is at or above carrying capacity;  put lots of political pressure on the wildlife department to expand and make easier predator control;   and, when the population gets hit from a severe winter kill, restrict the buck harvest through reduced opportunities (NOT APR's) to ensure that not too much pressure is put on the buck population.  A simple way to help this would have been to just put a two year hiatus on the Nov late hunt or reduce its season length down.
(snip)
Using these APR gimmicks just kicks the can down the road awhile longer until we have to have the real conversation.........and, unfortunately, probably will do damage to our herds;  the legacy of the 3 pt or better mule deer APR thats been in effect for 13 years now is ever shortening seasons so now we are all crammed into a 9 day season; and, the unfortunate fact that we will never get rid of it because of the hit to the buck population the first year you get rid of it.

The legacy of the 4 pt or more restriction in NE WA will be that you will never get rid of it, and eventually you will see the late season shortened or scrapped entirely because of the pressure it will put on the mature buck population.

Muleguy:
The only fault I see with your logic is that once you put a "hiatus" on the late NE whitetail hunt, with this agency it'll be gone forever. Period. End of story.

They were going to do the 3-pt B/A restriction on muleys for 10 years IIRC, and it is now 14 yrs later.  I don't recall any recommendation from the bios that it be scrapped, either, as reported earlier, but I may have missed that one.

Otherwise, I find very salient points in your dissertation.

[Glockster]

We used to have a statewide spring bear hunt....just say'n.  LOL   I guess i'm an old timer 'cause i remember.  Just 40 years old though. LOL

Ah the legacy of game management by popular opinion......



I will vouch that Dave Workman didn't road hunt the Palouse this year LOL.  He went down in the nasty, steep, "thick" stuff.  ~And he did it last year too.

And good hunters getting in p#@# matches over personal hunting qualifications really must give the the forces of darkness a side ache from laughing so hard

[walt]

You want to help the herds??  Get rid of ALL antlerless tags until the herd is at or above carrying capacity;  put lots of political pressure on the wildlife department to expand and make easier predator control;   and, when the population gets hit from a severe winter kill, restrict the buck harvest through reduced opportunities (NOT APR's) to ensure that not too much pressure is put on the buck population.  A simple way to help this would have been to just put a two year hiatus on the Nov late hunt or reduce its season length down.

As far as the NE deer issue goes, I think muleyguy pretty much nailed it.

[bobcat]

I think the problem may be, that to do away with the 3 point minimum, they would have to go to permit only hunting the first year or couple years to limit hunting pressure. I'm sure that wouldn't be very popular, and the WDFW seems to base their management on popular opinion, so it looks like we're stuck with the 3 point minimum forever, or until the whole state goes to draw only.

[Elkaholic daWg]

I think the problem may be, that to do away with the 3 point minimum, they would have to go to permit only hunting the first year or couple years to limit hunting pressure. I'm sure that wouldn't be very popular, and the WDFW seems to base their management on popular opinion, so it looks like we're stuck with the 3 point minimum forever, or until the whole state goes to draw only.

There it is again WDFWspeak...

"  Guys, if you never have experienced something, you don't miss it. Well WE  (and  others) have and we have not let them program us to their way of thinking because we see it for what it is......A big forking mess they have created and want to continue being all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for S/P draw  chances while they create more catagories to take more $$$ from us. "

[bobcat]

Elkaholic,  you totally lost me with that post. So what is your opinion? You want to do away with the 3 point minimum and allow uncontrolled hunting for any buck, so the 1 1/2 year old bucks get wiped out that first year? Is that what you're saying?

[Houndhunter]

Proper predator management would do way more for our deer than any apr's, I wish our wdfw would wake up

[CedarPants]

Proper predator management would do way more for our deer than any apr's, I wish our wdfw would wake up

I think they are wide awake - and totally against predator hunting as an agency

[Elkaholic daWg]

Elkaholic,  you totally lost me with that post. So what is your opinion? You want to do away with the 3 point minimum and allow uncontrolled hunting for any buck, so the 1 1/2 year old bucks get wiped out that first year? Is that what you're saying?

 What I am saying is that why do we want to give them another category to take more money. And do you really think that deer are that stupid that the 1 1/2 year olds would be wiped out? I don't  think so.

[Glockster]

We had "uncontrolled" hunting of all age class bucks and 40% more deer tags bought in the 70's & 80's.  Somehow we didn't wipe out all the deer. 

Biologists I cited back on page 2 state that you loose over 50% buck mortality in the 2-3 yr (muledeer fork and small 3pt) category to nature regardless of whether that's man taking them or the coyote down the draw.  You simply cannot stockpile wildlife....that's been proven time and time again by PROFESSIONAL biologists.

Part of the rise of the predator in WA has a lot to do with all the food we're leaving for them in the form of unfilled tags.  Of course, this plays really nicely into the pro predator agenda of WDFW and other 'let nature take it's course' advocates.

[Special T]

And what did we have in the 70's and 80's? Hound hunting for cougar, bear and bobcats! and an agency that was more interested in game than ESA related grants. 

[Dave Workman]

Elkaholic,  you totally lost me with that post. So what is your opinion? You want to do away with the 3 point minimum and allow uncontrolled hunting for any buck, so the 1 1/2 year old bucks get wiped out that first year? Is that what you're saying?

Bobcat: This sounds like alarmist WDFW excuse rhetoric. Nobody is going to wipe out the young bucks in a single season, unless we go to tribal regs.

We can do it the way it used to be done: set aside a couple of Okanogan units for B/A hunting, and open up others for general buck hunting. It'll be a boon, especially for kids looking to conk their first buck. And for the guys who want a bigger buck, all they need to do is hold fire if they see a spike or fork-horn. Pretty simple really.

At the same time, put a hold on doe hunting for everyone (Yep, that means bowhunters too) with an absolute time certain end...say 2 years and make that carved in stone. (and fire any biologist who recommends keeping it beyond that period).

In conjunction, the hunting of cougars and bears with hounds must be resumed, in earnest. And as I said earlier, remove the license requirement for killing coyotes. You should not need a license to shoot a coyote. 

[bobcat]

No, they certainly wouldn't get wiped out completely but in some units they would take a substantial hit for sure. As far as the doe hunting goes, I think it should be eliminated entirely except in areas in which the deer are over carrying capacity (not many areas like that).