Point system??

[muzbuster]

I have a question about our so called point system.
A few years ago (4-5), after repeated requests, I went elk hunting in the Nile unit with my Stepdad and his group who have hunted the area for since before the spike only and point system . All of them had always put in for the special bull & cow tags (as first and only choice area) resulting in drawing a few cow tags over the years between them, they were growing frustrated with none of them ever getting a bull tag. At that time my Stepdad and Stepbrother had some 6 points each, and once again didn't draw a special tag. So opening day comes and we run into to young guys (both in thier early 20's) come walking up to us asking if we had seen any big bulls as they had drawn tags for the area and didnt know where to go! After asking why they put in for the area not knowing where to go they said they had just thrown the hunt # down as a 3rd choice.  Then my Stepdad ask's how many points they had..both replied at the sametime..2.
Now, the question is how can someone with only 2 points and a #3 choice for that area get drawn over someone with 6 points and first choice for the area?? Any thoughts?
It just doesn't seem right to me. 

[huntnphool]

 Just luck of the draw Muz, it happens.

[trophyhunt]

What choice you put down doesn't matter, what matters is when your number is picked. The number of guys with 1 to 8 points by far out number the guys with a bunch of points. When someone is picked they go down the line of their choices untill they either draw or get not selected.  I've had the agony of defeat for 16 years while guys with 2, 4, and 6 points took all 3 tags I was applying for a couple years ago so I understand your anger, but I'm done complaining(maby) too many on here will tell you to apply for an easier tag. I hope they changed the quality tags to guys with 8 or more points only.

[Bigshooter]

If you have six points your name goes in the hat 6 times.  If I have 2 points my name goes into the hat 2 times.  If they only give out 1 tag and were the only two that put in for the tag I have a 25% chance of getting drawn and you have a 75% chance of getting drawn.  Just because you have more points does not mean you will be drawn over someone with less points.  It only means the guy with the most points has better odds of getting drawn than a guy with less points. 

As far a drawning with your 3rd choice.  Once your name is drawn they look at every choice starting with #1, before they move on to the next applicant.

[huntnphool]

If you have six points your name goes in the hat 6 times.  If I have 2 points my name goes into the hat 2 times.

 Thats not true Bigshooter, if you have 6 points your name goes in 36 times, if you have 2 points your name goes in 4 times.

[boneaddict]

Whether it seems right or not is the opinion of whomever throws their name in.   It is unlike a preference point system, which by the way I HATE, because at least you have a random chance of being drawn.   Wyoming for instance......bascally, and I use that word becasue its more complicated than that with random choice....but   you put your name in the moose hat until you have the most points for that given unit.    Right now its around 10 points for the average unit, more for some and rarely less in others.    Pick 10 points.    If you have nine, then you won't get drawn.   Next year you might have 10, but all those with 10 that didn't get drawn now have 11 and again you won't get drawn.   

Thats a preference point system.   We have a weighted bonus point system.  As Rob pointed out, the weighted portion comes from them squaring your points so your name is in the hat more and more as you build points BUT you still ahve a random chance at drawing.

[bigpaw]

I understand your frustration. I have 14 quality bull points and I only put in for two units because that is where i want to hunt.  This year a guy drew the one and only tag from my first choice with 7 points. Some hunters  get upset with the guys that draw with a low number of points, I get upset with our system. I would say it needs to change, but I would just get bashed for saying that. 

[boneaddict]

and probably lose those 14 points........

[Bob33]

In our system everyone has a chance, and no one has a guarantee.  That is the good and bad of it. 

[bobcat]

In our system everyone has a chance, and no one has a guarantee.  That is the good and bad of it.

Yep, that about sums it up.

[seth30]

I have 3 years of applying for everything, not a thing yet but points.  The day I get drawn for something is the day that I get deployed

[buckhorn2]

The unfair part for me is the guys who get the 10 points for turning someone in for a violation. Not that it is;nt right but I don;t like to feel penalized for not catching someone to go into a drawing against someone who has 20-30 or as some even 40 points does;nt seem fair. I think they should maybe be in a separate drawing or something it just seems unfair to for someone to have 14 points and have put in every year and someone jumping ahead with 20 just because they saw something another person did;nt.

[SkookumHntr]

The unfair part for me is the guys who get the 10 points for turning someone in for a violation. Not that it is;nt right but I don;t like to feel penalized for not catching someone to go into a drawing against someone who has 20-30 or as some even 40 points does;nt seem fair. I think they should maybe be in a separate drawing or something it just seems unfair to for someone to have 14 points and have put in every year and someone jumping ahead with 20 just because they saw something another person did;nt.

-I feel the same way! It burns me that people can jump ahead of me in points for turning guys in! Not that im against them getting opportunity but they should be in a different drawing/hunt or at least not be able to have more points than the guys that put in since 96!

[bobcat]

The unfair part for me is the guys who get the 10 points for turning someone in for a violation. Not that it is;nt right but I don;t like to feel penalized for not catching someone to go into a drawing against someone who has 20-30 or as some even 40 points does;nt seem fair. I think they should maybe be in a separate drawing or something it just seems unfair to for someone to have 14 points and have put in every year and someone jumping ahead with 20 just because they saw something another person did;nt.

-I feel the same way! It burns me that people can jump ahead of me in points for turning guys in! Not that im against them getting opportunity but they should be in a different drawing/hunt or at least not be able to have more than the guys that put in since 96!

I think just 1 or 2 points for turning a poacher in would be more fair. 10 points does seem excessive. And actually, I'm not sure it always is 10 points. I think it's supposed to be that you can receive "up to 10 points".

[trophyhunt]

One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once.  I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.

[Bob33]

One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once.  I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.

CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.

[trophyhunt]

One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once.  I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.

CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.

Do you know why? I wonder what the problem was?

[muzbuster]

Thanks for the input guys! Sure is a wacky system but I suppose any system that get used would have problems. Like alot of guy's, I guess I'm just whinnin for never have been drawn for anything.
 

[Bigshooter]

If you have six points your name goes in the hat 6 times.  If I have 2 points my name goes into the hat 2 times.

 Thats not true Bigshooter, if you have 6 points your name goes in 36 times, if you have 2 points your name goes in 4 times.

Yeah, I know.  But I didn't want to explain that.  And I thought most people knew anyways.

[longashes]

Stupid question alert ...

Where do we find out how many points we have ... I've been putting in for another go at "Greenwater" for eighth years now with no permits. Shouldn't I have allot of points in the bank?

[Bigshooter]

One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once.  I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.

CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.

Do you know why? I wonder what the problem was?

I believe it was only for one year that CO did that.  It was called point banking.  It was to try and get guys that had a lot of points built up to use them and ease point creep.  The reason that I read they haven't done it again is because very few people with a lot of points took advantage of it.

[Woodchuck]

Stupid question alert ...

Where do we find out how many points we have ... I've been putting in for another go at "Greenwater" for eighth years now with no permits. Shouldn't I have allot of points in the bank?

You should have 8 now and will have 9 when you submit next year. If you submit on-line it will tell you how many points.

[spikehunter]

only wolves and indians don't need points we (the tax payer) just support them :'

[sled]

What choice you put down doesn't matter, what matters is when your number is picked. The number of guys with 1 to 8 points by far out number the guys with a bunch of points. When someone is picked they go down the line of their choices untill they either draw or get not selected.  I've had the agony of defeat for 16 years while guys with 2, 4, and 6 points took all 3 tags I was applying for a couple years ago so I understand your anger, but I'm done complaining(maby) too many on here will tell you to apply for an easier tag. I hope they changed the quality tags to guys with 8 or more points only.

  I like the 8 or more points idea.

[BOWHUNTER45]

they can shove the point system up their ....well you know 

[Skyvalhunter]

I hear that, pretty soon a person is going to need points to be able to get a deer as the late hunts will be the only time you see deer at this rate.

[sled]

ive   got 10 points for elk.  my brother inlaw has drawn 3 out of 5 years for elk.  total bs.  im glad for him, but in no way I think it is fair!

[Atroxus]

Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

[groundhog]

I have 17 points for elk and my odds of drawing a permit anytime soon are very low. In the meantime the Indians and the wolves are going to wipe them out. The special permit numbers will go down because we have fewer bulls and so will our odds of drawing. This unregulated indian harvest is a bad situation but wait until these wolves get going. I think between the two we are doomed.

 I have max points and I say the hell with the present system. Lets forget about points and go back to any bull like it was 17 years ago or 3 point or five point minimum. I know it would only take a year or two to kill all the big bulls but at least everyone will get a crack at them. It is better than letting the Indians and the wolves get em all.

[Bob33]

Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

You are correct.

Odds to draw a quality tag in Washington are extremely low, even with a lot of points.  When you have 10 permits and 3000 applicants, 2990 applicants won't get drawn.  Points increase the odds, but the chance of getting drawn for some of the best tags is still very low.  You might go from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 100.  And yes, the guy with one lotto ticket wins sometimes!

[Curly]

they can shove the point system up their ....well you know 

 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

There is always going to be unhappy people no matter what system they use. 
Washington State has the highest number of Elk hunters in relation to Elk numbers, yet there are places that still have winter-kill and feeding programs, along with WDFW herd reduction 
I have been applying for permits since before the point system, still no OIL, and with the price for one now, not sure if I will ever, as I most likely will not be able to afford $330 + fuel to scout, time off work, and all other related expenses, with the price increase the odds of drawing might go up.
But I have been drawn for Elk, (Observatory ), 3 times, once the first year and the other 2 times with 6 points.
Been drawn for Deer, 4 times.
It might seem unfair, but it is a lottery

[lokidog]

It is definitely better than the max points system IMO.

I like the fact that even a new, first time hunter has a chance at drawing a tag.  The worst part of it here is that the way WDFW runs things, there is less opportunity even though many of us have a lot of points built up.  However, I have to admit I am one of those butt heads that got drawn for a great tag once with only one point... Margaret archery 2001.

[Curly]

I'd prefer no point system at all, but if we must have points, then this system is the most fair.

[Branden]

Washington has so many hunters and very few quality hunts, its going to take a lifetime to draw unless you are lucky. If most hunters weren't so selfish, there are things that could be changed so you could get drawn for a quality tag. Also, the indian issue is getting old. If you want to do something about it, make the whole state draw for elk. Then the indians don't have free rein. But most guys still want to go out and blast a spike every year. Nothing wrong with that, but don't b**** and moan when nothing gets done about over harvest, when hunters themselves can stop it.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

LOCK THE GATES !! PUT IN MORE GATES !!
Give handicapped and over 65 access to getting behind some gates, but limit number partners (eliminate someone taking advantage by getting "grampa" to hunt and bringing the whole family)

[YellowDog]

Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now.  By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system.  However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.

[Atroxus]

Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now.  By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system.  However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.

Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. 

[doyourtime89]

Yeah I am not sure what to think about this system.  I have been putting in for years on elk and moose with nothing, but yet my son drew a elk his second year hunting.  I know its just like a lottery, everyone has some what of a chance.  I just keep putting in, to late to stop now with all the points I have.  I just hope I hit something soon.  I really hope my son gets he youth moose next year.  It will be his last year as a youth hunter.

[Bob33]

Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now.  By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system.  However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.

Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. 

I believe if you run the numbers, money is better spent now buying raffle or lotto tickets for most of the highest quality permits in WA.  If you win the mega-millions, you could buy the governor's tag (or any number of outfitted hunts in other states) with the money.

Mtn Goat permit: something like 1 in 1000 odds!  The odds of winning a raffle or lotto can't be much worse, can they?

[Atroxus]

Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.

If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now.  By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system.  However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.

Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. 

I believe if you run the numbers, money is better spent now buying raffle or lotto tickets for most of the highest quality permits in WA.  If you win the mega-millions, you could buy the governor's tag (or any number of outfitted hunts in other states) with the money.

Mtn Goat permit: something like 1 in 1000 odds!  The odds of winning a raffle or lotto can't be much worse, can they?

Actually the lotto odds are FAR worse then most people realize. I saw something on the news awhile back and if I recall correctly your odds of getting struck by lightning are "better" than the odds of hitting all the numbers on a mega millions jackpot.

[Bob33]

"Actually the lotto odds are FAR worse then most people realize. I saw something on the news awhile back and if I recall correctly your odds of getting struck by lightning are "better" than the odds of hitting all the numbers on a mega millions jackpot."

Thanks.  You know that could also written "Actually the odds of getting a Washington quality permit are FAR worse then most people realize. I saw something on the news awhile back and if I recall correctly your odds of getting struck by lightning are "better" than the odds of drawing a Washington OIL permit or Blue Mountains elk permit."   

Oh well; we can always dream.

[big wood]

LUCK OF THE DRAW. i HAVE THE MAX POINTS IN WA, MT, WY AND HAVE APPLIED FOR 17 YEARS IN ID AND HAVENT GOT DRAWN EXCEPT FOR A DEER TAG IN WA 7 YEARS AGO. OH WELL i'LL KEEP TRYING!

[doyourtime89]

What is max points?  How many points do you max out at? 

[bobcat]

What is max points?  How many points do you max out at?

There is no such thing as "max points". I think what people mean when they use that term is that they have the most points possible because they have been applying since the beginning of the point system (first year was 1996).