(poll added) Management input on Colockum Elk

[danderson]

Just for clarifacation what units make up the colockum unit, according to the WDFW its all the units north of I-90 from the top of snoqualime pass to vantage.

[bobcat]

Just for clarifacation what units make up the colockum unit, according to the WDFW its all the units north of I-90 from the top of snoqualime pass to vantage.

I'd think more like north of I-90 and east of highway 97, to the Columbia River.

[colockumelk]

I think you could still get that almost 1 mile buffer and keep Colockum Pass road open.  Looking at a map you could close Colockum Pass rd 1.5 miles south of where Colockum Pass forms the eastern border of the refuge.  There is a road that goes right off of Colockum Pass road meanders to the North East and then meets back up with Colockum Pass road just north east of the game preserve.  That would take two gates and would create the 1 mile buffer around the preserve needed (except for the North East corner) 

Cook Canyon is already closed just before the bridge on the upper end.  So it no longer connect with Colockum Pass.  I think the should do the same thing with Coleman Canyon.  I think that they should close off all those spur roads that connect it to Cooke Canyon and the roads that spider web across the basin.  Basically if you look at a Washington Atlas and Gazetteer and look at GMU 328 if you closed all the dashed and dotted lined roads and kept all the solid lined roads open it would create enough escapement that we could keep it OTC for the Colockum. 

As far as hunting the Colockum every other year I wouldn't support it.  The Yakamas and poachers would still be in there hammering away at the branch bulls which would continue to decline.  Plus it would be too hard to enforce.  There would be too many people for the game wardens to check. I like the brain storming but I am not sure I would like it or that it would work.     But just because I think it would not work doesn't mean that it wouldn't work.  I have been wrong before.  Just ask my wife

[Happy Gilmore]

I think you could still get that almost 1 mile buffer and keep Colockum Pass road open.  Looking at a map you could close Colockum Pass rd 1.5 miles south of where Colockum Pass forms the eastern border of the refuge.  There is a road that goes right off of Colockum Pass road meanders to the North East and then meets back up with Colockum Pass road just north east of the game preserve.  That would take two gates and would create the 1 mile buffer around the preserve needed (except for the North East corner) 

Cook Canyon is already closed just before the bridge on the upper end.  So it no longer connect with Colockum Pass.  I think the should do the same thing with Coleman Canyon.  I think that they should close off all those spur roads that connect it to Cooke Canyon and the roads that spider web across the basin.  Basically if you look at a Washington Atlas and Gazetteer and look at GMU 328 if you closed all the dashed and dotted lined roads and kept all the solid lined roads open it would create enough escapement that we could keep it OTC for the Colockum. 

As far as hunting the Colockum every other year I wouldn't support it.  The Yakamas and poachers would still be in there hammering away at the branch bulls which would continue to decline.  Plus it would be too hard to enforce.  There would be too many people for the game wardens to check. I like the brain storming but I am not sure I would like it or that it would work.     But just because I think it would not work doesn't mean that it wouldn't work.  I have been wrong before.  Just ask my wife

it would be nearly impossible to gate of the Eastern side. People would just drive around any gates. Much easier obviously to close off Coleman / Cooke because most spur roads are dodging up a steep hill or in timber. I think attempting to close anything should occur on top closest to the refuge if it was going to happen. The more open areas are where the guys driving are doing the road hunting. Down in Cooke and Coleman there aren't hardly any big open areas where you can do much road hunting or shooting long distances. A short run and the elk are out of sight. Up on top, where the meadows open up and timber gets thinner is the only area I'd support closing up a bit.

[colockumelk]

The "older gentleman" could still hunt the edges of the closed areas.  They would have the benefit of a larger elk heard with more "leakage" of animals out of the closed road areas.  More elk benefits everyone, not just the people who make the trek into areas with closed roads and wilderness.  People who hunt the wilderness of Bumping and Rimrock and Little Naches probably see more elk overall, but the people who hunt near the roads below those areas still see lots of elk, and the reason for the lots of elk is the huge reservoir of elk in the more inaccessible areas.  Every GMU with elk should have a safety zone (either wilderness or closed road).  Ever notice how the harvest numbers are greatest in the GMU's that have one?

Exactly well said and this is what I keep trying to say.  Just because you close a road doesn't mean you take opportunity away.  And more roads does not equal more opportunity to the disabled, elderly and the lazy.  In fact more roads equals LESS opportunity.  Here is why.  FACT:  More roads equals less animals.  FACT: More roads means you have to go farther and deeper to find animals.  Places that the disabled and elderly and lazy can not go.  Lets look at an example.

 The top of Colockum Pass is fairly flat.  Somewhat easy to walk around if you can't get around so good.   But its criss crossed with roads.  Roads all over.  Animals avoid the roads like the plague.  FACT: On average they try and move 1 mile from a well used road.  Since there is a bunch of roads up on top in order to escape these roads and the mass amounts of hunters that drive them they must bomb off the side and go down into the deep and steep canyons that the elderly and disabled can't get too.  In order to see animals you must get off the roads.  How it is now getting "off the road" means going down hill into a deep canyon. 

Now lets say that we closed off all those spur roads that spiderweb across the top.  The roads are still there, you can still walk them.  Because of the lack of vehicle traffic the elk now stay up on top of the basin (which is where they hang out pre-season) and are up on the flat parts where the disabled and elderly can still get to.  Now getting "off the road" doesn't mean going down into a deep canyon it means walking across a flat. 

Road closures create escapement.  Escapement creates more animals.  More animals to hunt equals more opportunity.  Opportunity is not measured in how many miles you can drive in your truck or ride on you 4 wheeler.  Opportunity is measured in how many legal animals there are to harvest.  The Anti-Road Managment crowd always call the Pro-Road Mangement crowd "elitist" and we just want to take away opportunity.  They alway take the word "road-management" to the extreme and instantly think that we want to turn it into a Wilderness area.  LITERALLY every single time this comes up.  Talk about gross-exageration.  They always say if we want to hunt in a "wilderness area" or far from roads than go there.  Okay here is my response to that.

We are not trying to make it a wilderness area.  We are not trying to take away opportunity, we are not trying to be elitist.  100% of studies show that less roads equals more animals.  I want to create more opportunity for people.  This means solving the main issue in the Colockum.  Which is there are TOO...  MANY.... ROADS!   Whether it is easy access to branch bulls from poachers and the Yakamas or easy access for "true-spikes" for the licensed hunters.  In order to grow your bull population you need a place for them to escape, to hide, to survive.  Roads take this away. 

We can both close roads creating escapement and also keep enough roads open that still gives people many many miles to drive.  You say go somewhere else if you don't like it, well same to you.  If you dont' like road closures go hunt somewhere else.  I think people who are given the facts of what road closures do to protect and grow our herd, yet are still selfish enough to not want to do what is right by the herd are "elitist" If you want a place to drive everywhere then the Manastash is the place for you.  We have a responsibility to ensure that we maintain a viable and healthy elk herd in the Colockum.  We do not however have a responsibility to ensure that you have as many roads open as possible to drive around.  Especially on WDFW lands.  Their responsibility has nothing to do with road access, it has to do with properly managing our herds.

I might have gotten carried away.  But I get sick of being called an "elitist" and how I am steeling opportunity.  This is the same as class warfare that is used by Obama.  The EXACT same tactics.  I don't own horses, I don't want to turn the Colockum into a wilderness area.  If I want to hunt in a wilderness area (I do often, and in which case I go to a wilderness area.)  I want to be able to hunt with my 56 year old father who is overweight and has bad knees.  I can't hunt in a wilderness area with him.  I can hunt in the Colockum with him.  But the Colockum sucks.  I say this even though I shot my spike this year there.  The health sucks.  Its because there are too much roads.  My Dad can't go far from a road.  But more roads does not and has not created more access for him.  It has taken away access.  My Dad says that.  He is basically disabled because of his knees and lower back (although he is too stubborn to get a placard) and he isa gainst all the roads that are open in there.  I want to create more opportunity for my Dad and other people like him.  More roads is not the answer.  Less roads is.  Smart road-managment is the answer. 

[colockumelk]

I think you could still get that almost 1 mile buffer and keep Colockum Pass road open.  Looking at a map you could close Colockum Pass rd 1.5 miles south of where Colockum Pass forms the eastern border of the refuge.  There is a road that goes right off of Colockum Pass road meanders to the North East and then meets back up with Colockum Pass road just north east of the game preserve.  That would take two gates and would create the 1 mile buffer around the preserve needed (except for the North East corner) 

Cook Canyon is already closed just before the bridge on the upper end.  So it no longer connect with Colockum Pass.  I think the should do the same thing with Coleman Canyon.  I think that they should close off all those spur roads that connect it to Cooke Canyon and the roads that spider web across the basin.  Basically if you look at a Washington Atlas and Gazetteer and look at GMU 328 if you closed all the dashed and dotted lined roads and kept all the solid lined roads open it would create enough escapement that we could keep it OTC for the Colockum. 

As far as hunting the Colockum every other year I wouldn't support it.  The Yakamas and poachers would still be in there hammering away at the branch bulls which would continue to decline.  Plus it would be too hard to enforce.  There would be too many people for the game wardens to check. I like the brain storming but I am not sure I would like it or that it would work.     But just because I think it would not work doesn't mean that it wouldn't work.  I have been wrong before.  Just ask my wife

it would be nearly impossible to gate of the Eastern side. People would just drive around any gates. Much easier obviously to close off Coleman / Cooke because most spur roads are dodging up a steep hill or in timber. I think attempting to close anything should occur on top closest to the refuge if it was going to happen. The more open areas are where the guys driving are doing the road hunting. Down in Cooke and Coleman there aren't hardly any big open areas where you can do much road hunting or shooting long distances. A short run and the elk are out of sight. Up on top, where the meadows open up and timber gets thinner is the only area I'd support closing up a bit.

My last post was not directed at you Happy. I typed it up and hit send before your post had come up.

Yeah this is another thing about the WDFW and their gates.  They almost always gate the road right where it starts.  Even if there is a meadow on either side of it.  Instead of gating it like 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile in where there is timber on either side.  So you are right people just drive around it.  I don't like the argument against gates that "people will ignore it"  IMHO fines for driving around a gate should be treated like poaching.  They lose their license for a year and all their possessions in or on that vehicle become property of the state.  As of right now the penalty is laughable.  Putting a gate WILL stop 90% of people from driving it.  Yes there is always that loser 10% that think they are above the law.  But it would keep out most people. 

I am adamant about closing those spur roads.  Looking at my map there is LITERALLY a spur road that comes off of Coleman every 1/2 mile or less.  These roads drive across the flats and interconnect each other and connect with Cooke, Colockum Pass and Schnebly and Naneum.  This is ridicoulous you can't tell me that there needs to be an open spur road every half mile.  Yes I realize that most peopel road hunt in the open on Colockum Pass.  But this high number of roads is not neaded.  Its insane.  This is what I mean by too much roads.  Where can the elk go to escape people when there are roads every 1/2 mile.  Can you please tell me why there needs to be an open road every 1/2 mile.  And how closing even half those roads would be taking away "opportunity"?

Creating a 1 mile buffer around the game preserve up on top would be tough.  It would be a challenge, however it doesnt mean it shouldn't be done.  Who cares if its hard.  Nothing good in life comes easy. 

[Happy Gilmore]

I agree with you on many of the spur roads which re-connect. Many are not green dots anyways as you said earlier. I do feel that all the connecting roads between the areas MUST remain open. Heading up Schneibly and coming out on the Colockum or Coleman has always been one of my favorite drives. Or, heading up the Colockum, stop at Lion Rock and drop down into Liberty. That is what makes the area so special to me. Those summer time rides/drives.

[colockumelk]

I would be totally fine with keeping some connecting roads open.  But not all of them.  You dont' need a connecting road every mile or so.  One connecting road would be fine.  Such as one road that goes from Colockum Pass to the top of Coleman, connects to the top of Schnebly to the top of Naneum that connects to the top of etc etc.  I think we could take a look at the map and like we have agreed block all those roads that are already closed and posted.  No matter what this is the first thing that needs to happen.  And then figure out a way so that you can keep a road network open so that you can drive to all of those canyons and that you can still get from Colockum Pass road to lions rock.  But I don't think we need 5 or 6 ways to do that. 

I would however prefer like I have said to to try and provide a buffer area around the game reserve since this is where the majority of the elk hang.  Again most bang for the buck.  And like I have said over and over again, close the least amount of roads you can and still achieve your escapement objectives.   

[Happy Gilmore]

One thing I learned at a recent meeting with F&W is that it is allowable for citizen groups to work on managed lands. Doing clearing work with a Dozer was mentioned as long as the proposed work follows a plan. The area biologist can approve a private volunteer group to do work such as install gates on closed roads, make barricades etc. Maybe just approaching it with some organized volunteer work to close existing roads which are now closed yet, are still passable?

Is there a Colockum Citizens Advisory Board? If not, call the biologist and get a few people lined up who are interested in working on improvements to the area. I'm sure you could find a snomobile group person, ORV person, birdwatcher, 4x4 club, hunters etc.

I don't think anything will happen without a broad spectrum of people voice that they are in agreement with the plan/proposed actions.

[colockumelk]

Happy thank you for that piece of information. A member on here one time volunteered his equipment to do just this. You are right. Maybe Washington for Wildlife could help be that one v
For now I would be happy to block the roads that are already closed. Thanks happy.

[colockumelk]

I like the idea of a Colockum wildlife foundation. Although maybe just a branch of WFW like a Kittitas county one would suffice.

[Happy Gilmore]

I like the idea of a Colockum wildlife foundation. Although maybe just a branch of WFW like a Kittitas county one would suffice.

I would try to put together a plan, get people from as many different users to get together for a quick meeting. Put it on paper as a written request to the biologist in charge of the area. As I mentioned, I think to be successful the group must represent all users. This mentality also opens up more resources. You never know when a bird watching group members' husband happens to own a heavy equipment rental company or something like that- I don't think you're off on what you'd like to see done. I think any action or plan must be acceptable to everyone who uses the area and serve more than one purpose.

Closing a road just to help elk isn't going to get it done. Closing it to protect and rehabilitate previously destroyed meadow, provide quiet to a bird nesting area, provide additional elk escapement, stop dumping of trash, or whatever...the longer the list of reasons the better.

Two, it must make sense to all of the users sitting around you. So far, everything I've read is very one sided. Close roads for elk escapement. The area is not only a elk hunting area. F&W must manage land for everyone. Just because we like hunting elk there doesn't mean we are the only users or should be in charge of what is and isn't available for people to use. Otherwise, I'm all for closing roads which are not green dots but, are passable and used.

[colockumelk]

All very good points

[idahoelkhunter300wby]

Happy gilmore,

You make some excellent points.

[Rainier10]

I am in 328, just off of Wilson Road, I have a backhoe and my neighbor has a bulldozer.  We have been blocking off roads going into the national forest were they have been closed down for elk calving.