Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?

[addicted2hunting]

That last thread got carried away so I thought I would open a more constructive one so it has its own thread. I am wanting to learn and also curious of others methods and ways of taking a dog start to finish on getting a dog steady to wing, shot and fall. or for the guys that prefer wing and shot... either way a dog being steady till released.  I know there are many ways from soft for the softer dogs to hard for harder dogs. I personally haven't had a soft dog yet so I am curious as to how the other common ways people get it done? I know the popular ways like Higgins, and hickox. I am gonna be wanting to polish my dog off on the pigeons of course until hunting season when I am out on wild birds to polish and apply it to wild birds... friendly chat folks, educational not hostile...

thanks guys...

[JBar]

Tag.

[wildweeds]

In the other thread you were quizzing as to why throw a dead bird when walking back to the dog,that's not anything new by any stretch,if you don't have a copy of the book written by Elhew pointer founder and legend Bob Wehle it's explained in that book to great detail.The dog stands steady because due to repetition you have walked back to him and rewarded him with a birdhead to eat for standing still they learn to expect the drill of bird goes up,and bird goes down and then I GET ONE HAND DELIVERED! The bird ALWAYS goes up and it ALWAYS comes down,when being shown in a trial the birds fly off and the dog stands there just mesmerized by the flight of the bird just knowing it will come down,that's when the handler has him by the collar to move him off to the next cast off point .Dogs have an attention span of about 20 minutes,it's best to get the dog to do what you want in that time frame and quit on a positive note,a dog learns bad habits with the NSTRA training method of 5 birds in a bucket and 2 hours to train,they learn to rip or scoop birds 1-4 and then buck up and tow the line on bird #5.I've been there and done it so I speak from personal experiance.I myself don't have the time to properly devote to the full breaking process so what I do is get them birdy/pointing/handling and killing over them steady to wing on wild birds and VERY limited preserve bird shooting.I give them 1 chance at preserve birds, knock it/scoop it they get the rope and back to the truck and another victim comes out for a try.I did break a dog a few years ago and it was fairly easy as the specimen liked to point,but it was alot of time.I just pay the piper and have it done,once retired I'll do it myself.If you get a dog that always points low and unstylish there are pigeon tricks that will turn them into shiny diamonds,I know them,I've seen them and know what they can do,they will make a dog stand tall on it's tip toes and have excitement off the charts,it's an element of surprise.I've also got alot of bird planting tricks that do wonders for students with happy feet who do not stop on a dime.

[addicted2hunting]

I'm listening... I'll get that elhew book... It makes sense. I'd like those pigeon tricks you speak of because once the dogs get used to the pigeons they know it's fake and they are much more sloppy. Not that pigeons matter but it adds a new element to the training as it gets easy for the dogs to be broke when they know it's fake. If I get a chukar in front of him he performs completely different. Heaven only knows what I'll have to do once he gets on wild birds... Appreciate the feedback

[Shannon]

I like to throw the bird after the shot and go get it myself and toss it at there feet for the reward. Or I'll shoot the bird and go get it myself. I'll let them retrieve one out of ten all the way to keep them interested. This helps them not to expect the retrieve every time and want to break.
I'd also like to say that even though NAVHDA doesn't judge style it still is important to a lot of its members. I know it is to me. The versatile breeds aren't as stylish as the average setter or pointer but they still get my blood pumping when they slam into a rigid point. I'll post a picture when I get to my other computer of some versatiles that I think have some style. Mine of course.

[Shannon]

I like to have multiple birds at every set up to have the dog anticipate there are more birds around. Keeps them steadier and really comes in handy on birds that have delayed flushes like sharp tails. I'll have live pigeons in a bird bag and throw pigeons over there heads while they are on point trying to get them to break so I can correct them. It's fun stuff if you take it slow enough and slowly add the building blocks in order not to take away there style and confidence.

[AspenBud]

I can not and will not take credit for it, but I saw this posted a while back on another forum, a well known Cover Dog trainer/handler/breeder in the Midwest wrote it. For some reason these thoughts of his tumble in my head when I work with my new pup these days, even if I'm not following it to the letter.

"Start with runs in the fields and woods. Give good contacts with good flying pen raised birds as grouse contacts may be hard to come by this time of year. You don't need a lot of contacts just enough to fire up the pups instincts.

 Once pup is running well and hunts while on the ground start yard work. Teach a good recall and gun conditioning. Then start the whoa breaking process all the while keeping the dog in good spirits. Not a trick of the trade but I like to use release traps.

 Once a pup starts showing good signs of pointing and standing birds start your bird work. I like to start by putting quail in a foot release trap and put a pigeon in a auto release trap further up wind. Bring pup into the quail scent. If the pup rushes the quail I launch the pigeon. The pup sees the pigeon take flight which it pushed me to launch. Let the pup chase to the end of the check cord then stop it. Get your hands on him and pick him up and put back into the quail scent. Whoa the pup and make it stand. (Some may not be ready for this stage if the foundation training wasn't done well enough). If not ready just keep yard working until ready. I like to have the pups at least whoaing on the run in workouts about 10 yards in front of me before starting this exercise.

 I'll stand the pup back into the quail scent, whoa it and start a very short flushing attempt. I'll then pull a quail out of my game bag that has the flight feathers pulled off of one wing. Toss the bird in a direction that the pup will not come into contact with the bird in the foot release trap. Pup will chase. Shoot a blank pistol and let the pup get the bird. Make some fuss over the pup for doing it right. Doing this will teach the pup if it rushes in the bird flies away and standing puts a bird in its mouth.

 Once you have gotten the pup to the point of standing birds in a controlled situation you are ready to put the pup into a more advanced set up.

 You are teaching and giving the pup the tools needed to be a good bird dog. Take what you have shown your pup to the woods.

 Once pup learns the command whoa I like to reenforce with the e collar around the flank. It then replaces the check cord while in the woods. If dog bumps a grouse I let pup chase about 10 to 15 yards and stop it with e collar around the flank followed by the whoa command. Set the dog back a few yards whoa it in place and give pup a verbal tone letting it know this behavior displeases you. Walk in front and flush, go back to pup and praise for standing and the move on to next grouse and repeat over and over and over....

 A lot of people think that you can't teach a good grouse dog on planted quail because of the bad behavior that might come from it. A good set up will yield good results and bad set up will yield bad results.

 Putting a good foundation on a pup is the best trick of the trade. No short cuts."

[addicted2hunting]

I like to throw the bird after the shot and go get it myself and toss it at there feet for the reward. Or I'll shoot the bird and go get it myself. I'll let them retrieve one out of ten all the way to keep them interested. This helps them not to expect the retrieve every time and want to break.
I'd also like to say that even though NAVHDA doesn't judge style it still is important to a lot of its members. I know it is to me. The versatile breeds aren't as stylish as the average setter or pointer but they still get my blood pumping when they slam into a rigid point. I'll post a picture when I get to my other computer of some versatiles that I think have some style. Mine of course.

Absolutely! I love a stylish dog also. Just not the high tail style. My fave is the intense stretched out neck lower then the shoulders and butt up and tail locked straight out... Especially when they have that slight muscle twitch as they are so intense... That's enough to make my heart stop... Hard to get that on pigeons though. Planted chukar my dog does it.

[jetjockey]

A lot of good stuff right there.  Another thing not to forget is the importance of the steps to break a dog.  You don't break a dog before they are ready.  You start with letting them be a dog by hunting and busting birds.  Then you introduce the yard work (heel and whoa).  Then you can put them on an elevated barrel to get them comfortable standing, and start throwing birds all around them..  Then you bring it all together on the ground.  This is why whoa training is so important...  One nice thing about training with bobwhite quail is that you can establish "wild" coveys with a call box, some quail, and some feed.  That way you don't need all the gadgets and you can kill the birds since they are released birds.  You hold them in one area with feed and the bird in the call box.  As you kill birds from the covey, you just add birds.  Plus you can move the call box around to move your covey around as well.  It's not a completely controlled situation, but it mini is hunting for the dog and allows the trainer to keep a tight grip on the training.  You can also break a dog on wild birds, but you have to really know what your doing.

[addicted2hunting]

here is cedar pointing a chukar at the end of a tracking session.(reason for the checkcord). I like his style on chukar but pigeons not so much. wildbirds should be way different.

[addicted2hunting]

A lot of good stuff right there.  Another thing not to forget is the importance of the steps to break a dog.  You don't break a dog before they are ready.  You start with letting them be a dog by hunting and busting birds.  Then you introduce the yard work (heel and whoa).  Then you can put them on an elevated barrel to get them comfortable standing, and start throwing birds all around them..  Then you bring it all together on the ground.  This is why whoa training is so important...  One nice thing about training with bobwhite quail is that you can establish "wild" coveys with a call box, some quail, and some feed.  That way you don't need all the gadgets and you can kill the birds since they are released birds.  You hold them in one area with feed and the bird in the call box.  As you kill birds from the covey, you just add birds.  Plus you can move the call box around to move your covey around as well.  It's not a completely controlled situation, but it mini is hunting for the dog and allows the trainer to keep a tight grip on the training.  You can also break a dog on wild birds, but you have to really know what your doing.

oh absolutely! you shouldn't even start until you can stop the dog at 50 yards in its tracks with whoa. I did forget to mention my dog was able to do that before I started. so yes there was a lot of ground work laid before actually starting it on birds. like making him whoa in the yard while you play with birds and stuff or when he is a puppy whoa everytime before food and he eats only when he is commanded. to this day my dog gets either put in sit about 20 feet away in the other room when I feed him or on whoa. with that ground work I can now put him at sit in the field and walk away with him 100yds away around some bushes and load the truck and ALWAYS come back and release him with a tap on the head.

[addicted2hunting]

I like to have multiple birds at every set up to have the dog anticipate there are more birds around. Keeps them steadier and really comes in handy on birds that have delayed flushes like sharp tails. I'll have live pigeons in a bird bag and throw pigeons over there heads while they are on point trying to get them to break so I can correct them. It's fun stuff if you take it slow enough and slowly add the building blocks in order not to take away there style and confidence.

Yeah I have heard that, it also helps throwing multiple birds for the homers too cause they can flock fly back to the loft and they are safer and don't get lost as easy.

[Bwana Bob]

Some interesting methods here on breaking to wind and shot. What do you think about the methods used in the perfect start / perfect finish DVD? I've been using this dvd and so far with good results but my dog is not that far along to break her to wing and shot. I haver her half way broke to the gun, but 3 week in AK for work has set me back a bit. Been training by myself so I let her chase the bird after I release it, but only if she has a solid point on it, then when she's about 100yd away I fire in the air. Will shorten the distance that I shoot over time. will this method set me back to breaking her to wing?

[jetjockey]

I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen!  And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one).  Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work. 

[addicted2hunting]

I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen!  And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one).  Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Ya I spent the time with whoa for safety reasons. But that's just me. As long as the dog knows whoa before real bird work is key though. I usually just incorporate obedience and yard work into everyday life as im actually training for the bigger stuff on actual training sessions. Just like before work do some walking whoa around the house as I'm getting ready. Give him a treat make it fun. Heel is the tough one though if you have a fireball of a dog. I know a guy who can stop his dog on whoa with a whistle at 100 yds easy. But that's his preference. I don't think you can get too hung up on obedience, it just depends at what level of control you prefer. I do t use whistles and stuff but I want my dog to stop reliably atleast 50 yds. If you can't stop your dog with a voice command at 50 yds than your yard work isn't complete in my opinion. But to each there own. Doesn't mean you can't still do good in trials and hunting.