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Author Topic: White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan  (Read 23491 times)

Offline Special T

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Re: White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2016, 09:23:11 AM »
Personal example of USFS road management:

Private timberland owner and USFS both use same road to get to their different parcels of land, they have a "cost share agreement".  Big landslide wipes out part of the road.  Forester and USFS employee jointly take a look at the problem.  USFS guy, "Oh, this is really bad.  Will take at least a year and $150,000. It will need a NEPA."  Private forester, "let me handle it, and you cost share,"  USFS makes smart decision and replies "ok".   $15,000 and a few weeks later, road is fixed following state rules.   

The problem and cost is in the PROCESS not the actually fixing or maintenance of roads.
Bingo!
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline Special T

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Re: White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2016, 09:32:07 AM »


This subject is just another example why people like me  aren't so scared of returning federal lands to the states. How much benifit and access are we getting my letting the feds control it? Oh yeah it keeps diminishing with every road bed they take out or gate.

There's a lot of gates on DNR & WDFW lands as well. What about red dot roads on state areas?

Heck in King County basically every DNR parcel is gated and closed to target shooting, there's less restrictions on the USFS lands in King County then there is on DNR land. And if you think this is just a King County issue think about all of the public meetings DNR has had to start regulating recreation in several other parts of the state
Does DNR cost tax payers $ ? No they generate funds by managing state lands through Timber sales. Does DNR rip out road bases like the USFS does? No.  Are most DNR lands gated? Yes

So in round about terms your telling me I should support the USFS because I have more freedom on that land.  This despite the fact that they make BS reasons to limit accessibility.  The problem is that you can make the argument to  close a road  for a good reason and pull the culverts and gate or tank trap the entrance. You can't make a good argument for destroying miles of road bed that removes access.

I don't care for the DNR or the USFS but if I had to pick it would be the DNR. At least they are generating $ and not costing me any.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline ElaphusElatus

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Re: White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2016, 10:40:03 AM »
In the case of this project under their chosen alternative only 15 miles will have the road bed torn up. Another 69 miles will be closed, Maintenance Level 1, either left to grow over, blocked with barriers, or tank-trapped after they fix potential resource concerns, e.g., culverts. The roadbed will remain in place and available for future use if necessary. Their ML 1 description  says “1.2.3.1.1. Maintenance Level 1 (Storage) These are roads that have been placed in storage between intermittent uses. The period of storage must exceed one year. Basic custodial maintenance is performed to prevent damage to adjacent resources and to perpetuate the road for future resource management needs. Emphasis is normally given to maintaining drainage facilities and runoff patterns. Planned road deterioration may occur at this level.”

So yes, the 69 miles of road is not there for current motorized vehicle use, but it is not taken down to the level of decommission and can still be reopened if necessary. The 15 miles proposed for decommissioning is far better than the 42 proposed by the Joint Conservation and Recreation Group’s Alternative which was thankfully not considered in the Ranger's decision.

But yes, the feds do seem to make a bigger deal out of things then they need to, resulting in much higher cost and lack of action due to too much caution over being challenged on anything they do. But that's the nature of the lawsuit-happy society we live in.

Offline logger

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Re: White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2016, 03:22:16 PM »
Personal example of USFS road management:

Private timberland owner and USFS both use same road to get to their different parcels of land, they have a "cost share agreement".  Big landslide wipes out part of the road.  Forester and USFS employee jointly take a look at the problem.  USFS guy, "Oh, this is really bad.  Will take at least a year and $150,000. It will need a NEPA."  Private forester, "let me handle it, and you cost share,"  USFS makes smart decision and replies "ok".   $15,000 and a few weeks later, road is fixed following state rules.   

The problem and cost is in the PROCESS not the actually fixing or maintenance of roads.   

      I saw that between f.s and orm, orm had that road fixed in a couple days good as new
go ahead on er.

 


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