Tribal fishing

[OutHouse]

 We've allowed a permissive/licensed based system. Probably should have fought harder on that during the last 1000 years. I suppose the bottom line is the tribes did a much better job of preserving their rights (some here say we have a god given right to hunt).

I would agree with you 100%.

I would guess if there were no 'rules' there would be no game left. At all. Humans in general will not control themselves. Some just want to kill for the thrill.

I think you're right about that. Bison are a good example.

[Skyvalhunter]

Some want to kill for the horns too

[GWP]

 We've allowed a permissive/licensed based system. Probably should have fought harder on that during the last 1000 years. I suppose the bottom line is the tribes did a much better job of preserving their rights (some here say we have a god given right to hunt).

I would agree with you 100%.

I would guess if there were no 'rules' there would be no game left. At all. Humans in general will not control themselves. Some just want to kill for the thrill.

I think you're right about that. Bison are a good example.

A big part of that was to wipe out the Indian's food/fur source so their land could be settled. 'Commanche Moon' is a well documented book/narrative about how we made agreements with the Indian's, broke the agreements, took more land, made more agreements, broke those agreements, took more land and pushed them into living on reservations. Essentially wiping them out for the most part. Or 'rehabilitated' them, as it were.
Same with the fishing here. The 'Indian Fishing Wars' never really got 'sort of' settled until the 1980's, when for the FIRST time, treaties/agreements, were honored. There were a LOT of broken promises along the way. Easy to read up on it. An embarrassment really. If you make an agreement, you should keep it. The 'non Tribal' side was not too good at that.

[snarkybull]

"Tribes have the right to fish. Non tribal is a privilege."


That comment is about the most racist comment I've seen on this thread.

It's not a racist statement. It's legally spot on. You may not like it, but it's reality. I've probably said this on this forum before, but most Europeans never had a "right" to hunt and fish. The King owned the forest and the rivers. Had to have permission or a license to hunt or fish (after all the animals were the king's property). This goes back to medieval times. Tribes retained their rights by negotiating treaties. They did a very good job at that. The joke is sort of on us. With few exceptions, we've allowed hunting and fishing to remain a privilege.

To expand on this:

The tribes as a people retained their right to fish.  The state as a people also has a right to fish.  The state has deemed that fishing is a privilege to its citizens.  The tribes (different tribes do things their own way) have the ability to say whether fishing is a right of their members or a privilege.  That is up to them.  They generally have tribal laws in place that can revoke the right (or privilege) to fish after violations of their tribe's fishing laws or regulations, most notably in commercial fisheries.

Wetwoodshunter can correct me if I misspeak here, but I felt it was noteworthy to this thread that the treaty referenced the people as opposed to individuals.

Also, in at least some of the treaties the President of the United States retained the ability to move them to another reservation at any future time "as he deems fit".  Think about that for a bit.

[wags]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

[Meathunter06]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

   :yeah:Nothing is going to change until we eliminate the Demonrat party

[trophyhunt]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

   :yeah:Nothing is going to change until we eliminate the Demonrat party

[pianoman9701]

"Tribes have the right to fish. Non tribal is a privilege."


That comment is about the most racist comment I've seen on this thread.

There’s absolutely nothing racist about that statement. It’s a fact of life. The tribes that signed the Stevens Treaty in 1855 acquired the right to fish, it’s the law. On the other hand Washington license holders buy a privilege to fish. That is why big brother Jay could shut down fishing a couple of Marches ago but we could still boat.  I may not agree with it, which is a moot point, since it will never be changed.

I do get a kick out of the “racist” comment, which is completely irrelevant. 

one group of people who get rights over others because of race has nothing to do with race? Oh, ok.

Due respects, Trophy, they get rights that others don't because the US government signed a treaty guaranteeing those rights. It has zero to do with race. Our government signs treaties all the time which give some people rights that aren't given to others.

[Platensek-po]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

Yeah and none of the rivers in Bristol bay have ever been dammed. Not entirely sure why people think that decreased salmon runs are the tribes fault. Did the tribes put a city of a couple million people on the water where the salmon run? Did the tribes damn all the rivers? Maybe the tribes have had huge commercial operations in the oceans? What’s the population of the tribes vs not? Seems to me that percentage wise the tribes have done more than anyone to try and protect the salmon runs. But now that it’s all been messed up and they have rights to fish while you don’t it’s their fault? Man some people can’t see the past at all.

[hunthard]

Very valid points Plat.

[Special T]

I think folks should focus on changes that are possible. I mostly hear complaining but not a lot of folks diving into the issue.

The salmon problem is complex and likely many different adjustments are necessary. I will also add that I have not dove deep into the subject.  I have listened to several comission meetings  on wildlife issues. Mc Issac always seems to ask for specific detailed examokes of how we could facilitate positive change.  This requires more than just complaining ir being a keyboard warrior.

I belive one of the changes that has broad appeal is predator control. Cormorants, Merganzers, seals and such could me managed. Its not easy but it is an area that Tribes have extra authority to excercise, and agreement with sportsmen. Have you written the comission, the senate or house Nat resource committee, joined and advocated with a sportsmens group?

I have and must say that the solution will not be one miracle cure but fixing lots of smaller contributing problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[wags]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

Yeah and none of the rivers in Bristol bay have ever been dammed. Not entirely sure why people think that decreased salmon runs are the tribes fault. Did the tribes put a city of a couple million people on the water where the salmon run? Did the tribes damn all the rivers? Maybe the tribes have had huge commercial operations in the oceans? What’s the population of the tribes vs not? Seems to me that percentage wise the tribes have done more than anyone to try and protect the salmon runs. But now that it’s all been messed up and they have rights to fish while you don’t it’s their fault? Man some people can’t see the past at all.

I won't argue against your points, most of them are quite valid. However, here we are now, what do we do?
The tribes are putting more salmon into the water from hatcheries now than the State does. The problem is when those healthy runs of hatchery fish come back along with scarce native fish, the wild fish are caught along with the natives in a non-selective manner. This will result in the extinction of the wild runs.
There are selective methods (fish traps) that are being developed on the Columbia river that allow the wild fish to be released. Maybe these methods should be explored on Puget Sound rivers as well?

[Platensek-po]

All the arguments are now pretty much moot.
Most of the Puget Sound salmon runs doomed. Too many people want too few fish, too much toxic runoff into the waters of the Sound, too much politics, etc, etc..

I am a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska where the runs that I fish are the most scientifically and intensely managed runs in the world. Our Bristol Bay sockeye runs have been getting bigger and bigger over the past ten years, exceeding projected run sizes nearly every year. Kings runs are even increasing in our district. All wild fish.

Almost all of the Treaty fishing in Washington is sustained by hatchery runs. Heavy fishing on a river that has mixed stocks of few wild fish and large runs of hatchery fish will ultimately wipe-out the wild fish; absolutely no question about it.

Perhaps the fact that the Tribes are the largest political donors to the Democrat Party is Washington has something to do with the situation?
 

Yeah and none of the rivers in Bristol bay have ever been dammed. Not entirely sure why people think that decreased salmon runs are the tribes fault. Did the tribes put a city of a couple million people on the water where the salmon run? Did the tribes damn all the rivers? Maybe the tribes have had huge commercial operations in the oceans? What’s the population of the tribes vs not? Seems to me that percentage wise the tribes have done more than anyone to try and protect the salmon runs. But now that it’s all been messed up and they have rights to fish while you don’t it’s their fault? Man some people can’t see the past at all.

I won't argue against your points, most of them are quite valid. However, here we are now, what do we do?
The tribes are putting more salmon into the water from hatcheries now than the State does. The problem is when those healthy runs of hatchery fish come back along with scarce native fish, the wild fish are caught along with the natives in a non-selective manner. This will result in the extinction of the wild runs.
There are selective methods (fish traps) that are being developed on the Columbia river that allow the wild fish to be released. Maybe these methods should be explored on Puget Sound rivers as well?

I agree. I’m not saying that the natives are all glorious stewards of their fisheries. Nor do I think they are out their trying to lay waste to salmon. I think salmon face a huge uphill battle for various reasons. Hatcheries are and have been a problem. Habitat is key but at this point how much will it matter?? Oceanic conditions are also changing and playing a role. Truth is salmon are somewhat of a delicate niche species and therefore will be difficult to sustain. I don’t think there is one glorious save everything answer either. The answer is uncomfortable for most and requires sacrifices and hard work from everyone. Heck that’s hard to get even half the people to do either much less all.

[h20hunter]

As stated in many threads, many times...thanks plat for your points of view.