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Author Topic: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees  (Read 12182 times)

Offline fireweed

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new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« on: August 05, 2013, 10:35:22 AM »

From Eatonville Dispatch
http://www.dispatchnews.com/?p=2838

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 10:41:14 AM »
The DFW was blindsided, eh? Wait until wolf damage really takes off. "We had no idea this would happen."  :bash:
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 10:49:19 AM »
Rayonier, Physt and others have been charging for access for years.  Wonder how long WDFW was blindsided before Weyco took out a full page ad in the regs?

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 10:55:25 AM »
It is just making it a rich mans game everybody wants to have there hands in the pot and I for one would not pay extra to hunt my great state of Washington with the DNR and inflation on tags and permit applications I am pretty sure I will not be hunting here anymore after this season. It is sad that it is coming to this. :dunno:
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Offline Goshawk

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 07:51:51 PM »
Allow me to translate this for you.

"The WDFW had no idea  :yike: that hunters would object to paying for access to what was public lands."
You'll never get a Big'un if you keep shooting Little'un's.

Offline bigtex

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 08:01:36 PM »
Allow me to translate this for you.

"The WDFW had no idea  :yike: that hunters would object to paying for access to what was public lands."

The lands were never "public", they were private lands that were open to the public. Public lands are owned by the government, not a company.

Offline BOWHUNTER45

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 08:12:27 PM »
Allow me to translate this for you.

"The WDFW had no idea  :yike: that hunters would object to paying for access to what was public lands."

The lands were never "public", they were private lands that were open to the public. Public lands are owned by the government, not a company.
100% correct ..BUT do not these huge timber companies get huge Tax cuts from the government to share their lands for recreation ? The government needs to tax the living crap out of them for doing this ...pretty sad a guy can not even go on a walk with his dog because he does not have a permit ...I say  :pee: on them  :dunno:This is seriously a messed up deal !!!!!! :twocents:

Offline fireweed

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 08:45:34 AM »
Allow me to translate this for you.

"The WDFW had no idea  :yike: that hunters would object to paying for access to what was public lands."

The lands were never "public", they were private lands that were open to the public. Public lands are owned by the government, not a company.

But don't forget all the landlocked public lands now behind private gates and basically treated as private.  Seems the landowner next to the public road gets to control everyone else.  And its not just checkerboard, either.  Here in the SW nearly ALL of our public lands are landlocked, including an entire 35,000 acre DNR forest and a 7,000 acre WDFW wildlife area.

Offline Goshawk

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 06:43:26 PM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.
You'll never get a Big'un if you keep shooting Little'un's.

Offline Alan K

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 06:50:25 PM »
The state itself started charging for access before Weyco did, I don't see why they were surprised!  :bdid:

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 07:02:14 PM »
Yeah but it's only $30 to access DNR lands, and there's no limit to the number of permits they can sell. So, not quite the same. If Weyerhaeyser would sell access permits, for let's say $50 per vehicle, and no limit on the number sold, I think they'd bring in just as much money, and the average person could still afford to hunt on Weyerhaeuser.

Offline Eli346

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 07:20:03 PM »
 I'm thinking about carrying a box of road flares to toss across the gated lines. Screw em.

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 07:28:58 PM »
I'm thinking about carrying a box of road flares to toss across the gated lines. Screw em.

 :yike:

I remember when rumors of the access permits were floating around thinking there might be a bunch of disgruntled hunters out there . . . Sounds like this fire season could be particularly bad, and not because of the weather!  :yike:  :bdid:

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 06:46:14 AM »
I'm thinking about carrying a box of road flares to toss across the gated lines. Screw em.

Really? Thinking about arson and posting it on the WWW? Brilliant. Best of luck in the future!  :tup:


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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 08:21:05 AM »
Yeah but it's only $30 to access DNR lands, and there's no limit to the number of permits they can sell. So, not quite the same. If Weyerhaeyser would sell access permits, for let's say $50 per vehicle, and no limit on the number sold, I think they'd bring in just as much money, and the average person could still afford to hunt on Weyerhaeuser.

 :yeah:

I wish WEYCO and the others would allow access like IEP does in NE Wa.  Just get a permit, what was it $40 or something, which allows you access to their lands.  In getting the permit you read the timber company rules regarding carrying a shovel, fire extinguisher, etc. and you sign something saying you understand the rules........you then have a permit for a year at a reasonable price. :twocents:
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Offline Curly

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2013, 08:26:17 AM »
I'm thinking about carrying a box of road flares to toss across the gated lines. Screw em.

Really? Thinking about arson and posting it on the WWW? Brilliant. Best of luck in the future!  :tup:

 :yeah:

 :yike:   :o :o 

Better hope a suspicious fire doesn't start up.......they may come looking for you. :twocents:  :o
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Offline Eli346

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 04:24:20 PM »
 Wouldn't think of dropping a flare, just sarcasm and frustration. Lighten up.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 07:12:06 AM »
Wouldn't think of dropping a flare, just sarcasm and frustration. Lighten up.

It's not me you have to be concerned about lightening up. After your public post, if a suspicious fire starts in one of these tree farms, I'll be the least of your worries. Everything you post on the internet is there forever.
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 07:16:55 AM »
"And what did you mean by landowners next to a pubic road controlling everybody else?"

What kind of road?

:yike:
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 07:29:14 AM »
Quote
Yeah but it's only $30 to access DNR lands
Only $30.00?  :yike: Be patient Bobcat, their foot is in the door  :bdid:. Won't be long before it goes waaaaaay up from there  :sry:
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 07:34:16 AM »
Everybody is on board.   Have to buy a tribal permit to step out of your rig on Makah land.  $10 a pop.  That's just a start.   They are going to have to reinforce rear view mirrors pretty soon for all of the permits we hang off of them.

Offline fireweed

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 07:46:46 AM »
"And what did you mean by landowners next to a pubic road controlling everybody else?"

What kind of road?

:yike:
It means the one with the legal access (public road frontage) gets to control all the land behind them on the logging roads.  We all know in Wash. state USFS owns the Mountains, DNR then might own the foot hills, and private owns the lowland next to the public roads.  So if the lowland gates are shut, they can block all the land "behind" them (the public land).  Where I live we have many thousands of acres of public lands blocked by private timber simply because of this--to get to the public land from a public road you must first go through a few miles of private.  I DO blame the agencies for this.  They had chances in the past to get easements, but were getting public access (then!) without easements for free, so they didn't bother.  Now it is a big issue--for access, tourism, economic development, rural quality of life.  Those landlocked public areas, no matter how large, are ineligible for most public funding like grants.  So we pay in via taxes, but cant get funds for our public lands.   I have no sympathy for landowners who think it is their "right" to control public land.  Getting legal easements to landlocked public lands is the perfect use of eminent domain, especially for large parcels (1000's of acres) using existing roads. How could America or any country develop if roads to key areas couldn't pass through private lands? 

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 11:34:21 AM »
"And what did you mean by landowners next to a pubic road controlling everybody else?"

What kind of road?

:yike:
It means the one with the legal access (public road frontage) gets to control all the land behind them on the logging roads.
Read the quoted sentence again, carefully. ;)
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 11:37:18 AM »
"And what did you mean by landowners next to a pubic road controlling everybody else?"

What kind of road?

:yike:
It means the one with the legal access (public road frontage) gets to control all the land behind them on the logging roads.
Read the quoted sentence again, carefully. ;)
I think they have those kinds of roads in Seattle.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 11:43:39 AM »
I thought that private land-locked public land had to be accessible through easement.  :dunno: - if a section of public land is completely surrounded by private land, there has to be a way for the public to enter it. Can anyone address this?
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 11:50:21 AM »
Quote
if a section of public land is completely surrounded by private land, there has to be a way for the public to enter it. Can anyone address this?

Sure there is a way for the public to enter...  Helicopter!    :dunno:

Okay, I'm joking.

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 11:54:03 AM »
Quote
if a section of public land is completely surrounded by private land, there has to be a way for the public to enter it. Can anyone address this?

Sure there is a way for the public to enter...  Helicopter!    :dunno:

Okay, I'm joking.

You may be joking, but you are 100% correct.

Several years ago there was actually an ad in the WDFW hunting regs where a company was advertizing helicopter trips for hunters.  It would have been the only way to access some of the state land in the Toutle; my brother actually thought about hiring them to fly him in when WEYCO had the gates shut and no access was allowed by foot to get to the landlocked state land. :twocents:
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Offline bobcat

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
I thought that private land-locked public land had to be accessible through easement.  :dunno: - if a section of public land is completely surrounded by private land, there has to be a way for the public to enter it. Can anyone address this?

No, there's nothing that says all public land is accessible by the public. There is a lot of state DNR land that does have easements through private land, but the problem is these easements are only for DNR employees or contractors who are working on the state land.

Same thing with National Forest. Lots of it has no legal access for the public.

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2013, 12:25:32 PM »
I thought that private land-locked public land had to be accessible through easement.  :dunno: - if a section of public land is completely surrounded by private land, there has to be a way for the public to enter it. Can anyone address this?

No, it can be completely unavailable to the public.  The only exception is if a historic use easement existed.

This varies by state, but in WA there is no guarantee of legal public access.
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2013, 12:29:04 PM »
Too bad. So we own and pay for the land and have no use of it.
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 05:20:16 PM »
I blame the agencies for landlocked public land, not the private landowners.  Agencies can get easements, but they are too cheap.  However, the DNR has no legal authority  to get a public use easement via eminent domain (only willing seller).  The WDFW can (but they don't) and the USFS can, and sometimes they do.  There are also laws on the books that say you can't landlock someone else's TIMBER, but you can landlock public land. 

For all you the Toutle and Margaret tag holders who get locked out of public land every fire season, yell at the Forest Service.   USFS specifically passed on easements back in 1985 because (this is quoted from their plan)  "The landowners have traditionally had an open access policy...If in the future public demands indicate a need for public access rights, the Forest Service will acquire those rights." These easements would open up the Toutle block DNR plus adjacent USFS.   We've been demanding for years now, and the USFS is aware of the issue, but they haven't gotten serious...Surprise!  (I'm a broken record... and don't just think I pick on timber co's for access.  This landlocked situation is squarely the fault of agencies and they've all heard from me!Maybe if they got letters from more folks they would take it seriously. I was especially miffed that the DNR was asking you to have a DP once you got to their landlocked land.)

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 08:58:03 AM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.

People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 09:05:23 AM »
Quote
People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales

 :yeah:

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 09:08:02 AM »
"And what did you mean by landowners next to a pubic road controlling everybody else?"

What kind of road?

:yike:
It means the one with the legal access (public road frontage) gets to control all the land behind them on the logging roads.  We all know in Wash. state USFS owns the Mountains, DNR then might own the foot hills, and private owns the lowland next to the public roads.  So if the lowland gates are shut, they can block all the land "behind" them (the public land).  Where I live we have many thousands of acres of public lands blocked by private timber simply because of this--to get to the public land from a public road you must first go through a few miles of private.  I DO blame the agencies for this.  They had chances in the past to get easements, but were getting public access (then!) without easements for free, so they didn't bother.  Now it is a big issue--for access, tourism, economic development, rural quality of life.  Those landlocked public areas, no matter how large, are ineligible for most public funding like grants.  So we pay in via taxes, but cant get funds for our public lands.   I have no sympathy for landowners who think it is their "right" to control public land.  Getting legal easements to landlocked public lands is the perfect use of eminent domain, especially for large parcels (1000's of acres) using existing roads. How could America or any country develop if roads to key areas couldn't pass through private lands?

I don't know of any land owners that think it is their "right" to control public lands. It is not their fault the agencies were dumb enough to end up with these situations. If I had landlocked public land behind mine I sure as heck wouldn't keep an open road to it that I had to maintain and clean up garbage on, not to mention dealing with vandalism that inevitably goes along with it. Meanwhile sitting back waiting for a guy to run off the road and sue me because he claims a pothole or something was the cause.

"Getting legal easements to landlocked public lands is the perfect use of eminent domain" I think you are spot on here! But I don't see how you can villainize the landowners because this is not happening  :bash: I think it is pretty clear by now that the government agencies don't care to much about us. My bet is the only thing stopping them from purchasing easement's is that they don't want to pay for them and maintain the roads. They are doing a piss poor job of maintaining the roads they already do have in my area.
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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 09:09:49 AM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.

People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales
:yeah:

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Can you skin Grizz?

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Offline Goshawk

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2013, 08:51:06 PM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.

People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales

Well then, I think they really screwed that up big time. Some of the land swaps I've seen are loosing lowland forests for high elevation forests that have a much slower rate of regrowth. Now toss in the outright land sales and your just loosing ground all around.
You'll never get a Big'un if you keep shooting Little'un's.

Offline jay.sharkbait

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2013, 09:11:16 PM »
Wouldn't think of dropping a flare, just sarcasm and frustration. Lighten up.

It's not me you have to be concerned about lightening up. After your public post, if a suspicious fire starts in one of these tree farms, I'll be the least of your worries. Everything you post on the internet is there forever.

My property borders Vail. Everything I own is here including a 150 years of family history and heirlooms.

Think about it

Offline Coastal_native

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2013, 10:38:01 PM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.

People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales
 

Interesting...I wonder if they know that.  They're currently cutting 1/3 of what would be considered sustainable...meanwhile the state is broke and people have to pay for access.
"Do it in the woods"

Offline snowpack

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2013, 10:48:27 PM »
And,
Our own DNR continues to "swap out" public lands held close to population centers for lands held in the high elevations of North Eastern Washington where almost nobody can just drop by after work or school to enjoy.

People need to remember DNR's #1 purpose is NOT providing public land access but rather profiting from timber sales
 

Interesting...I wonder if they know that.  They're currently cutting 1/3 of what would be considered sustainable...meanwhile the state is broke and people have to pay for access.
I think that DNR gets hamstrung by the greenies/laws so much more than the private farms (but not nearly as much as USFS) that they can't really capitalize on the timber.

Offline bobcat

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2013, 02:48:11 AM »
You also need to consider the state of the timber market. Many timber sales that the DNR puts up for bid are going unsold.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2013, 03:05:03 AM »
since they are charging recreational use fees it should be taxed like an amusement park, a separate tax from land/timber.

I really don't see a lot of difference from Silverwood charging to get through their gates vs weyco to get through their gates etc.


 

Offline RadSav

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2013, 03:29:36 AM »
I have to wonder if Weyco isn't a little miffed that they are not being included in the Discover Pass program.  WDFW is getting 8% & DNR is getting 8%.  Perhaps they wanted a stake and this is all just a loud statement they want to be included  :dunno:

Timber companies own twice as many acres as those covered by the DPass. I expect because of the pass they are seeing an increase in sportsmen using their land.  And they are seeing no monetary benefit to the increased use, wear and vandalism.  I'd bet if the state wanted to keep private timber lands open to the public they could simply offer to expand the DPass program.  But then again that sounds like a simple solution.  And we all know government hates anything that might be simple!
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2013, 05:45:18 AM »
As has been said do away with the tax incentives.
The only man who never makes a mistake, is the man who never does anything!!
The further one goes into the wilderness, the greater the attraction of its lonely freedom.

Offline TheHunt

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2013, 08:25:34 AM »
Get a group for hunting.  Hire a helicopter to drop you in the State property that is land locked.   Not sure what the payment would look like but not sure it would be too much split between three or four people.
275 down 2

Offline templar021

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2013, 11:15:51 AM »
 "Public lands are owned by the government, not a company"
no...public lands are owned by us.  They are only managed by the government.

Offline headshot5

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »
Quote
Quote
"Public lands are owned by the government, not a company"
no...public lands are owned by us.  They are only managed by the government.

Fixed that last statement for you...   :tup:

no...public lands are owned by us.  They are only mis-managed by the government.

Offline Blacktail Sniper

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Re: new Article: WDFW blindsided by Timberland Fees
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2013, 11:33:06 AM »
Get a group for hunting.  Hire a helicopter to drop you in the State property that is land locked.   Not sure what the payment would look like but not sure it would be too much split between three or four people.

Just have to wait till the next day before hunting, but that would work...  :tup:
It is better to be consistently incorrect than inconsistently correct...

Sarcasm: The ability to insult stupid people without them realizing it. 

My level of sarcasm depends on your level of stupidity...

Sarcasm makes smart people laugh and stupid people mad.

 


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