Will WDFW finally confirm more wolf packs in the Methow Valley?

[GameHunter1959]

Question...

How much damage have wolves done in Washington, compared to where Idaho and Montana were at this point in their wolf management plan. Using a time table. So from the first "official" documented wolf pack to 5 years existence, 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I am curious to hear if Washington is fairing better or worse than where Montana and Idaho were at this point. My guess would be worse, because there are more wolves than ever, which are rapidly moving in to Washington from the other western states.

And I am NOT looking for an argument. When I ask questions, I am being genuine and looking for intelligent answers. I prefise this, because I don't want anyone to be offended or miss-interpret my intentions. This is a highly sensitive topic, which people can be easily miss-understood. Thank you...

[CAMPMEAT]

I personally know wolfbait and trust him with his knowledge about the lies from the WDFW more than anybody on here. 

[idahohuntr]

I personally know wolfbait and trust him with his knowledge about the lies from the WDFW more than anybody on here. 

I would like to agree with you two...but then all 3 of us would be wrong 

[mountainman]

I personally know wolfbait and trust him with his knowledge about the lies from the WDFW more than anybody on here. 

I would like to agree with you two...but then all 3 of us would be wrong 

that would make 4 of us

[wolfbait]

Question...

How much damage have wolves done in Washington, compared to where Idaho and Montana were at this point in their wolf management plan. Using a time table. So from the first "official" documented wolf pack to 5 years existence, 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I am curious to hear if Washington is fairing better or worse than where Montana and Idaho were at this point. My guess would be worse, because there are more wolves than ever, which are rapidly moving in to Washington from the other western states.

And I am NOT looking for an argument. When I ask questions, I am being genuine and looking for intelligent answers. I prefise this, because I don't want anyone to be offended or miss-interpret my intentions. This is a highly sensitive topic, which people can be easily miss-understood. Thank you...

Washintgton six years after first confirmed wolf pack and WDFW refuse to acknowledge the impact wolves are having on the game herds. Below is an article on the impact wolves had on elk in six years or so. In the Methow there are very few elk, deer are the main source of Predator/wolf prey. WDFW Biologist continue to say "for the amount of hunters that showed up, hunting was a great success". In 2007-08 we fed over a hundred head of deer with our horses/mules, since then it has dwindled down to last winter at four to six deer, ranchers in the area report the same decline.



Impacts of the Wolf introduction into the YNP and Idaho
2002
Estimated 663 wolves including 43 breeding pairs in tri-state area. Third year of 3 year countdown. USFWS announces
wolves are recovered in tri-state area. http://www.mtmultipleuse.org/endangered/wolf.htm

By the 2003 hunting season (which included the late hunts in Jan.-Feb. 2004), the number of permits had been cut in half, from 2,880 to only 1,400, yet elk numbers continued to decline.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Website%20articles/George%20Dovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2017%20Feb-Mar%202006%20The%20Northern%20Yellowstone%20elk%20herd.pdf

Six Years into the Yellowstone wolf introduction

November 22, 2002

Yellowstone Wolf Experiment Out of Control
 — by Jim Slinsky

It is with great sadness that I write this column. You didn’t have to be a wildlife biologist to foresee the outcome when you mix Canadian timber wolves with the wildlife of Yellowstone National Park. Yellowstone’s wildlife populations have plummeted. Wolves are brutal, vicious predators and have a tremendous impact on all wildlife in any ecosystem.

I am not exaggerating. I radio interviewed a rancher, Mr. Robert T. Fanning Jr. and a big game outfitter, Mr. William Hoppe, both of whom live within sight of Yellowstone National Park. It is a whole “New World” out there since Canadian timber wolves were introduced.

Mr. Fanning is the founder of "Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd" and Mr. Hoppe is the President. From investing hours on the phone with these gentlemen I believe the American people and the American sportsmen are not hearing the straight story on this experiment that’s flat out of control. Montana wildlife needs some relief and so do it’s private landowners, big game outfitters and ranchers.

The original plan was for 78-100 wolves to be introduced into Yellowstone. Of course, you realize hunting is not permitted in Yellowstone or any other National Park. US Fish and Wildlife personnel were concerned wildlife populations were too high and impacting flora and fauna. (Sound familiar?) The environmentalists were screaming their theme of returning to the “Natural Order” of life in the wilds. The project went forward.

The elk herd in Yellowstone was estimated at 20,000 animals at the time of the introduction of the wolves. Historic documents reveal that Yellowstone’s elk, the largest migratory elk herd in the US, was about 30,000 at the turn of the 20th century.

In less than 10 years the effect wolves have had on Yellowstone’s wildlife has been nothing less than devastating. Elk populations hang around 10,000; the moose and deer are almost completely gone. Antelope went from 600 to 200 specimens. Sheep populations have fallen from 300 to 40, possibly an inadequate amount to repopulate the Park. Wolves are attacking horses, mules, livestock and stalking children. The economic health of the region has collapsed and so has the outfitting business north of Yellowstone.

The wolves are multiplying at the rate of 34% a year. There are now 370 wolves in Yellowstone and 770 in the tri-state area of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Wildlife in that region is getting hammered.

Forget what you heard about wolves killing only the weak and sick. Wolves are canines and like dogs, they kill by instinct and for fun. Aerial photographs document dead, red wildlife carcasses over the landscape. Wolves practice “surplus killing” whether they are hungry or not. The wildlife of the region can not rest and they live in constant fear. Like coyotes following a deer herd, a wolf pack pursuit is relentless. One wolf will kill 23-25 mature elk a year, not counting calves. Now multiply that by 770 wolves.

The recruitment of newborn game animals into their populations has been the hardest hit. Elk calf survival is averaging 14 out of every 100. In high-density wolf areas, only 4 out of every 100 calves survive the wolf packs. Keep in mind, these wolves are not native to the region. The Rocky Mountain wolf at 80 pounds, which hunts in pairs, has been displaced by this Canadian gray wolf, which hunts in packs. This predatory machine has no predator.

The Montana Department of Game, Fish and Parks has applied to the US Fish and Wildlife Service for de-listing of the wolf from “threatened” to “game” animal status. A decision will be made in December. Environmental groups have vowed to sue and tie this up in court for years. The environmentalists will stab the US F&W Service in the back in the process. They both worked together to introduce the wolves. The residents of that region desperately need relief and start the process of controlling this insidious predator.

Wolf introduction is earmarked for all of our western states. We now know what this predator can do to our wildlife, sport hunting and the economies of these states. We also know they are being used as a divisive tool against the private property owning Americans living in that region.

We simply must say "no" to wolf reintroduction. Sportsmen, private landowners and all Americans need to recognize this program as eco-terrorism on our wildlife. It is an obvious attempt to end sport hunting.

Bill Hoppe suggests if Easterners have any doubt about the brutality and devastation of wolves, they only need come to Yellowstone and witness the carnage. We only need watch the ground turn red from the blood of our valued wildlife. We only need listen to the crying of an animal being consumed alive.

We only need listen to their screams of agony.

About the Author

Jim Slinsky, host of Outdoor Talk Network, has been an avid hunter and fisherman for over forty years. Taught by his father, Jim was shooting and fishing before he ever started school. Equally capable with a fly rod, baitcasting, spinning gear, bow, rifle, shotgun and handgun, Jim believes variety is the key to the total outdoor experience. Freshwater, saltwater, small game, big game, Jim enjoys it all and is in the field every chance he gets. As a current member of the Pennsylvania Outdoor Writers Association, Jim has begun to write about many of his experiences and the issues that sportsmen face in our ever-changing world. Jim is an active rod and gun builder, precision handloader, English setter dog breeder, multi-species fisherman, former college professor, active conservationist and staunch supporter of individual freedoms. His favorite modified quotation is, "I can't remember a day in the outdoors I didn't like." Every show is dedicated to his father, the late, great, Jim Slinsky Sr., "His hunting and fishing plans always included me." The show is Jim's full-time endeavor http://www.theoutdoorlodge.com/features/articles/outdoors/yellowstone_wolf_experiment.html

[wolfbait]

Question...

How much damage have wolves done in Washington, compared to where Idaho and Montana were at this point in their wolf management plan. Using a time table. So from the first "official" documented wolf pack to 5 years existence, 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I am curious to hear if Washington is fairing better or worse than where Montana and Idaho were at this point. My guess would be worse, because there are more wolves than ever, which are rapidly moving in to Washington from the other western states.

And I am NOT looking for an argument. When I ask questions, I am being genuine and looking for intelligent answers. I prefise this, because I don't want anyone to be offended or miss-interpret my intentions. This is a highly sensitive topic, which people can be easily miss-understood. Thank you...

Washintgton six years after first confirmed wolf pack and WDFW refuse to acknowledge the impact wolves are having on the game herds. Below is an article on the impact wolves had on elk in six years or so. In the Methow there are very few elk, deer are the main source of Predator/wolf prey. WDFW Biologist continue to say "for the amount of hunters that showed up, hunting was a great success". In 2007-08 we fed over a hundred head of deer with our horses/mules, since then it has dwindled down to last winter at four to six deer, ranchers in the area report the same decline.



Impacts of the Wolf introduction into the YNP and Idaho
2002
Estimated 663 wolves including 43 breeding pairs in tri-state area. Third year of 3 year countdown. USFWS announces
wolves are recovered in tri-state area. http://www.mtmultipleuse.org/endangered/wolf.htm

By the 2003 hunting season (which included the late hunts in Jan.-Feb. 2004), the number of permits had been cut in half, from 2,880 to only 1,400, yet elk numbers continued to decline.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Website%20articles/George%20Dovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2017%20Feb-Mar%202006%20The%20Northern%20Yellowstone%20elk%20herd.pdf

Six Years into the Yellowstone wolf introduction

November 22, 2002

Yellowstone Wolf Experiment Out of Control
 — by Jim Slinsky

It is with great sadness that I write this column. You didn’t have to be a wildlife biologist to foresee the outcome when you mix Canadian timber wolves with the wildlife of Yellowstone National Park. Yellowstone’s wildlife populations have plummeted. Wolves are brutal, vicious predators and have a tremendous impact on all wildlife in any ecosystem.

I am not exaggerating. I radio interviewed a rancher, Mr. Robert T. Fanning Jr. and a big game outfitter, Mr. William Hoppe, both of whom live within sight of Yellowstone National Park. It is a whole “New World” out there since Canadian timber wolves were introduced.

Mr. Fanning is the founder of "Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd" and Mr. Hoppe is the President. From investing hours on the phone with these gentlemen I believe the American people and the American sportsmen are not hearing the straight story on this experiment that’s flat out of control. Montana wildlife needs some relief and so do it’s private landowners, big game outfitters and ranchers.

The original plan was for 78-100 wolves to be introduced into Yellowstone. Of course, you realize hunting is not permitted in Yellowstone or any other National Park. US Fish and Wildlife personnel were concerned wildlife populations were too high and impacting flora and fauna. (Sound familiar?) The environmentalists were screaming their theme of returning to the “Natural Order” of life in the wilds. The project went forward.

The elk herd in Yellowstone was estimated at 20,000 animals at the time of the introduction of the wolves. Historic documents reveal that Yellowstone’s elk, the largest migratory elk herd in the US, was about 30,000 at the turn of the 20th century.

In less than 10 years the effect wolves have had on Yellowstone’s wildlife has been nothing less than devastating. Elk populations hang around 10,000; the moose and deer are almost completely gone. Antelope went from 600 to 200 specimens. Sheep populations have fallen from 300 to 40, possibly an inadequate amount to repopulate the Park. Wolves are attacking horses, mules, livestock and stalking children. The economic health of the region has collapsed and so has the outfitting business north of Yellowstone.

The wolves are multiplying at the rate of 34% a year. There are now 370 wolves in Yellowstone and 770 in the tri-state area of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Wildlife in that region is getting hammered.

Forget what you heard about wolves killing only the weak and sick. Wolves are canines and like dogs, they kill by instinct and for fun. Aerial photographs document dead, red wildlife carcasses over the landscape. Wolves practice “surplus killing” whether they are hungry or not. The wildlife of the region can not rest and they live in constant fear. Like coyotes following a deer herd, a wolf pack pursuit is relentless. One wolf will kill 23-25 mature elk a year, not counting calves. Now multiply that by 770 wolves.

The recruitment of newborn game animals into their populations has been the hardest hit. Elk calf survival is averaging 14 out of every 100. In high-density wolf areas, only 4 out of every 100 calves survive the wolf packs. Keep in mind, these wolves are not native to the region. The Rocky Mountain wolf at 80 pounds, which hunts in pairs, has been displaced by this Canadian gray wolf, which hunts in packs. This predatory machine has no predator.

The Montana Department of Game, Fish and Parks has applied to the US Fish and Wildlife Service for de-listing of the wolf from “threatened” to “game” animal status. A decision will be made in December. Environmental groups have vowed to sue and tie this up in court for years. The environmentalists will stab the US F&W Service in the back in the process. They both worked together to introduce the wolves. The residents of that region desperately need relief and start the process of controlling this insidious predator.

Wolf introduction is earmarked for all of our western states. We now know what this predator can do to our wildlife, sport hunting and the economies of these states. We also know they are being used as a divisive tool against the private property owning Americans living in that region.

We simply must say "no" to wolf reintroduction. Sportsmen, private landowners and all Americans need to recognize this program as eco-terrorism on our wildlife. It is an obvious attempt to end sport hunting.

Bill Hoppe suggests if Easterners have any doubt about the brutality and devastation of wolves, they only need come to Yellowstone and witness the carnage. We only need watch the ground turn red from the blood of our valued wildlife. We only need listen to the crying of an animal being consumed alive.

We only need listen to their screams of agony.

About the Author

Jim Slinsky, host of Outdoor Talk Network, has been an avid hunter and fisherman for over forty years. Taught by his father, Jim was shooting and fishing before he ever started school. Equally capable with a fly rod, baitcasting, spinning gear, bow, rifle, shotgun and handgun, Jim believes variety is the key to the total outdoor experience. Freshwater, saltwater, small game, big game, Jim enjoys it all and is in the field every chance he gets. As a current member of the Pennsylvania Outdoor Writers Association, Jim has begun to write about many of his experiences and the issues that sportsmen face in our ever-changing world. Jim is an active rod and gun builder, precision handloader, English setter dog breeder, multi-species fisherman, former college professor, active conservationist and staunch supporter of individual freedoms. His favorite modified quotation is, "I can't remember a day in the outdoors I didn't like." Every show is dedicated to his father, the late, great, Jim Slinsky Sr., "His hunting and fishing plans always included me." The show is Jim's full-time endeavor http://www.theoutdoorlodge.com/features/articles/outdoors/yellowstone_wolf_experiment.html

Crying Wolf Again - The Federal Cover-Up
By Montana State Rep. Joe Balyeat
Published 5/18/02

 "Truth is violated by falsehood, but it is outraged by silence"
(Henri Frederic Amiel)

Federal wildlife biologists have taken much criticism lately for their
sins of commission-falsifying lynx evidence where there were no lynx.
But even more disastrous than their sins of commission, are their sins
of omission. MT House FWP Chairman Dan Fuchs has obtained hard evidence
of the following:

1)The Feds have known since 1997 that elk calf ratios were being totally
decimated in areas of high wolf concentration.

2)When MT FWP personnel attempted to release this evidence to the
public, the Feds aggressively barred MT FWP from doing so.

Joe Balyeat

Represent Montana House District #32 Beginning in 1997, Carrie Schaefer
did a study of Yellowstone wolf/elk interaction entitled "Spatial and
Temporal Variation in Wintering Elk Abundance and Composition, and Wolf
Response." Amongst other things, her study revealed that areas of high
wolf concentration inside Yellowstone had calf ratios dropping
precipitously - 0 to 10 calves per 100, even while the ratio outside
high wolf concentration areas remained at 46 calves per 100! When MT FWP
biologist Tom Lemke and others made written request for permission to
release this data to the public; the Fed response to suppress it was
swift, aggressive, and sustained. On 2/18/99, Yellowstone Supervisory
Biologist Glenn Plumb wrote: "It is my position, after reviewing Ms.
Schaefer's investigation, that her raw data do not warrant full
distribution to the public."

On 3/18/99, in an interoffice Memo, Plumb again denied the request:
"Regarding your request for elk classification data generated through
Carrie Schaefer's ongoing research.we were remiss in presenting Ms.
Schaefer's.data in the Yellowstone Wolf Project Annual Report." And they
were able to hide this striking wolf predation in the annual reports
because they only gave averages for the entire northern herd - when the
0 calf ratios in high wolf areas were averaged with the 46 calf ratios
from elsewhere, the average was still up near the 30 calf ratio needed
to sustain herd viability.

Of course, the Feds rationalized their suppression by saying that
Schaefer's study was just raw data and still ongoing. Yet even after her
report was completed the Feds never publicized nor (to our knowledge)
ever gave permission to MT FWP to release the information. In fact, one
MT FWP biologist who is directly involved with decisions related to
Yellowstone elk has stated that the data was so well suppressed that he
hasn't even seen it. Rep. Fuchs only got a copy of Schaefer's study and
the related inter-agency letters after aggressively demanding copies of
all documents related to the incident.

Last winter when Fuchs, myself, and other officials did our own elk calf
survey we discovered the calf ratio had plummeted. The initial response
from amateur wolf advocates and some professional biologists was, "These
guys are hacks and don't know how to count". After the official elk
census came out and totally substantiated our claims, they changed their
tune. They said, "OK, they're right about the drop, but we can't prove
it's due to wolves. It could be drought or hard winters, etc."

Yet the Schaefer study strongly implicates wolves as the significant
factor in two different ways. First, geographically - during the course
of the same winter, she observed alarmingly low calf ratios in high wolf
areas even while calf ratios remained above average outside high wolf
areas. This mitigates against the notion that the low calf ratios are
caused by drought or hard winters.

Secondly, when coupled with current data for the entire Northern
Yellowstone elk herd; an alarming pattern is revealed. In
1997 and 98, the low calf ratio was confined to areas of high wolf
concentration - the Lamar Valley, etc. In this last year or so, as dense
wolf populations have reached critical mass across the entire northern
Yellowstone Range; we "surprisingly" see the area of low calf ratio also
expand to encompass the entire herd.

Let's cut to the chase (pardon the pun). Our ancestors realized long ago
that the wolf is a unique critter - a killing machine and a breeding
machine all rolled into one. Alaskan studies reveal wolf population
increases of 34% annually, even while being aggressively hunted. Data
from the first few years of our Tri-state wolf experiment also verify
this same 34% annual increase. It doesn't take a CPA (or a professional
wildlife biologist) to figure out that this rate results in a 1000%
increase in population size every 8 years!

If the Feds continue to break promises, suppress evidence, and drag
their feet for 3-5 more years; our wildlife and livestock may need to be
placed on the Endangered Species List by then (never mind our pet dogs,
llamas, and small children). I repeat - we are not calling for
eradication of wolves. We are simply saying that NOW is the time for the
Feds to move immediately to de-list the wolf; so that MT, Wyoming, and
Idaho state Fish & Game Departments can manage wolves like any other
species. It's time for the Feds to make up for past sins (of commission
and omission) by turning over wolf decisions to more trustworthy
managers.

MT Representative Joe Balyeat represents HD 32 in the Gallatin Valley.
He is Vice-Chairman of the House Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Committee and
also serves as a Director of the Montana Shooting Sports Association.
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/may_2002/crying_wolf_again.htm

"Let's cut to the chase (pardon the pun). Our ancestors realized long ago
that the wolf is a unique critter - a killing machine and a breeding
machine all rolled into one. Alaskan studies reveal wolf population
increases of 34% annually, even while being aggressively hunted. Data
from the first few years of our Tri-state wolf experiment also verify
this same 34% annual increase. It doesn't take a CPA (or a professional
wildlife biologist) to figure out that this rate results in a 1000%
increase in population size every 8 years!"

WDFW said WA grew by one wolf last year.
Maybe most of WA's wolves are gay?
Or maybe WA's wolves are on their migration route, you know like the Caribou, headed back to somewhere in Canada depending on their DNA tests.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Question...

How much damage have wolves done in Washington, compared to where Idaho and Montana were at this point in their wolf management plan. Using a time table. So from the first "official" documented wolf pack to 5 years existence, 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I am curious to hear if Washington is fairing better or worse than where Montana and Idaho were at this point. My guess would be worse, because there are more wolves than ever, which are rapidly moving in to Washington from the other western states.

And I am NOT looking for an argument. When I ask questions, I am being genuine and looking for intelligent answers. I prefise this, because I don't want anyone to be offended or miss-interpret my intentions. This is a highly sensitive topic, which people can be easily miss-understood. Thank you...

Wolves have been up here in NE Washington since ~2008 with a somewhat rapid increase in the population.  There are several packs here, but the Diamond Pack is one of the larger and best established packs up here.  It's smack dab in the middle of some terrific elk/moose/deer habitat.  We have not seen much change in Elk or deer populations.  They seem to be doing well and actually increasing.  Moose (this is still all speculation and anecdotal) seem to be decreasing, which is a trend that has been seen throughout the whole country.  WDFW is doing a pretty substantial moose study up here and will hopefully be able to figure out exactly what's going on.  They have been open about wolf predation being a factor.  No secrets there. 

[AspenBud]

I don't care what most of the public think they want. That has nothing to do with game management. They have no idea of what management goals are or why the bios do what they do. Most aren't even aware there are bios in the field. With regards to game management, most of the public are ignorant idiots. And you and your ilk feed on that, and it's wrong. You show them pretty pictures of wolf pups while farmer Joe loses his living and we lose our ungulates.

You talk and talk about what good wolves are for the ecosystem and how we need them and that proper management was applied to allow them back in, and then you throw all of that out the window to support public opinion instead of wildlife management to manage the wolves. You have zero integrity. You're a shill for the anti-hunting crowd who wants to use wolves to end our sport and heritage.

You can run your mouth with your assumptions there but at the end of it I'm right and you know it. The Washington public doesn't give a hoot about your government/wolf conspiracies. They make every hunter in this state look crazy and they cause people to not listen when real issues of management need to be brought up. This is not Idaho and you better wrap your brain around that and soon.

If you and your anti government buddies can't understand that I don't know what I can ever say to make you see reason and in which case we really are screwed on the issue of wolf management. I might not agree with you on everything, but I'd stand by you for some wolf management. I do not, however, want to be associated with anymore conspiracies of yours as a sportsman of this state.

But good luck, just don't be surprised when you find out to your horror how right I am. And I am right.

[idahohuntr]

I don't care what most of the public think they want. That has nothing to do with game management. They have no idea of what management goals are or why the bios do what they do. Most aren't even aware there are bios in the field. With regards to game management, most of the public are ignorant idiots. And you and your ilk feed on that, and it's wrong. You show them pretty pictures of wolf pups while farmer Joe loses his living and we lose our ungulates.

You talk and talk about what good wolves are for the ecosystem and how we need them and that proper management was applied to allow them back in, and then you throw all of that out the window to support public opinion instead of wildlife management to manage the wolves. You have zero integrity. You're a shill for the anti-hunting crowd who wants to use wolves to end our sport and heritage.

You can run your mouth with your assumptions there but at the end of it I'm right and you know it. The Washington public doesn't give a hoot about your government/wolf conspiracies. They make every hunter in this state look crazy and they cause people to not listen when real issues of management need to be brought up. This is not Idaho and you better wrap your brain around that and soon.

Very good point.  I'm still baffled at how folks like Piano can't understand or make the connection that the wildlife are owned by all of the public and their desires on management are to be considered collectively...its perhaps more terrifying than some of the conspiracy stuff they spout!

And even in Idaho we really didn't tolerate the conspiracy crowd like that laughingstock Rockholm who was frequently embarrased at IDFG commission meetings until the point that he finally tucked his tail between his legs and scampered away.   

[wolfbait]

I don't care what most of the public think they want. That has nothing to do with game management. They have no idea of what management goals are or why the bios do what they do. Most aren't even aware there are bios in the field. With regards to game management, most of the public are ignorant idiots. And you and your ilk feed on that, and it's wrong. You show them pretty pictures of wolf pups while farmer Joe loses his living and we lose our ungulates.

You talk and talk about what good wolves are for the ecosystem and how we need them and that proper management was applied to allow them back in, and then you throw all of that out the window to support public opinion instead of wildlife management to manage the wolves. You have zero integrity. You're a shill for the anti-hunting crowd who wants to use wolves to end our sport and heritage.

You can run your mouth with your assumptions there but at the end of it I'm right and you know it. The Washington public doesn't give a hoot about your government/wolf conspiracies. They make every hunter in this state look crazy and they cause people to not listen when real issues of management need to be brought up. This is not Idaho and you better wrap your brain around that and soon.

Very good point.  I'm still baffled at how folks like Piano can't understand or make the connection that the wildlife are owned by all of the public and their desires on management are to be considered collectively...its perhaps more terrifying than some of the conspiracy stuff they spout!

And even in Idaho we really didn't tolerate the conspiracy crowd like that laughingstock Rockholm who was frequently embarrased at IDFG commission meetings until the point that he finally tucked his tail between his legs and scampered away.   

You two never fail to amaze me with your visions, I bet WDFW and CNW are so proud of you. You can keep packing water for WDFW etc., but you as well as everyone that has seen the destruction wolves leave behind, know in the end WA and OR will look far worse than ID, MT or Wyoming. There are just too many stupid people employed by WDFW and ODFG and then throw in the money grubbing environmentalists and you have just another corrupt agency, that do nothing but stink it up for those who have good intentions. 

[idahohuntr]

You two never fail to amaze me with your visions, I bet WDFW and CNW are so proud of you. You can keep packing water for WDFW etc., but you as well as everyone that has seen the destruction wolves leave behind, know in the end WA and OR will look far worse than ID, MT or Wyoming. There are just too many stupid people employed by WDFW and ODFG and then throw in the money grubbing environmentalists and you have just another corrupt agency, that do nothing but stink it up for those who have good intentions.

You seem to be backpedaling from not that long ago when you preached how all was lost in those states when it came to elk hunting...since that little lie never materialized now were supposed to believe that the end is near for Washington instead?  You keep predicting the end of the world and somehow you keep getting it wrong.    Perhaps you should change your story

Now for your comment about too many stupid people employed by WDFW...I don't think you are in any position to discuss the intelligence of the WDFW personnel.  You have yet to make even one correct statement or prediction from what I can tell about wildlife and wolves...further, you continue to alienate wdfw staff and then wonder why they don't take you seriously with your wolf reports...maybe you ought to think about that and see how smart you feel. 

[GameHunter1959]

Summer ICE CHALLENGE incorporated in the wolf issue would be an interesting way to modivate change. 

[wolfbait]

You two never fail to amaze me with your visions, I bet WDFW and CNW are so proud of you. You can keep packing water for WDFW etc., but you as well as everyone that has seen the destruction wolves leave behind, know in the end WA and OR will look far worse than ID, MT or Wyoming. There are just too many stupid people employed by WDFW and ODFG and then throw in the money grubbing environmentalists and you have just another corrupt agency, that do nothing but stink it up for those who have good intentions.

You seem to be backpedaling from not that long ago when you preached how all was lost in those states when it came to elk hunting...since that little lie never materialized now were supposed to believe that the end is near for Washington instead?  You keep predicting the end of the world and somehow you keep getting it wrong.    Perhaps you should change your story

Now for your comment about too many stupid people employed by WDFW...I don't think you are in any position to discuss the intelligence of the WDFW personnel.  You have yet to make even one correct statement or prediction from what I can tell about wildlife and wolves...further, you continue to alienate wdfw staff and then wonder why they don't take you seriously with your wolf reports...maybe you ought to think about that and see how smart you feel. 

First off I wouldn't give WDFW the time of day, I have seen them in action where I live? As far as WDFW employees being stupid, I have met a few who talk the same wolf language as you do. Maybe they aren't stupid, perhaps they just don't know anything about wolves, and should have a job making coffee, you know something they can't screw up.

I haven't changed my mind on wolves, I have seen what they have done and know what the end results are where they are left uncontrolled,   even you can figure that out, but it doesn't fit the federal and state agenda does it? So they have the pro-wolf crowd on hunting sites etc. trying to turn those who are undecided.  You can BS the fans but not the players. SS

[mountainman]

Well said Wolfbait..again, some are so ready to believe what they are told or read, rather than listen to any first hand, in the field reports...also throw common sense reasoning out the door.,,never gonna change their minds. They are so entrenched with being"  right", they will defend till blue in the face, their"  facts" as being right,.. not. Worth the breath to try to change their mind and perspective buddy!

[idahohuntr]

As far as WDFW employees being stupid, I have met a few who talk the same wolf language as you do. Maybe they aren't stupid, perhaps they just don't know anything about wolves, and should have a job making coffee, you know something they can't screw up.

Nah...I think we leave the wdfw folks to manage the wildlife...let you handle the coffee making and internet name calling