Round-Up in Your Sandwich? Are our hoof-diseased elk eating Wonder Bread?

[pianoman9701]

I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk

I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when you are hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause.  Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity.

Hard to have any evidence when they don't test for it  how can you be so certain that spraying isn't related to hoof rot in our elk when you just admitted nobody knows how it relates to our elk ?? Im not hell bent on getting spraying banned but I'd love to see the elk come back to how it used to be..and I'd think you'd want solid evidence that spraying isn't making the environment/hosts more conducive to this bacteria before crossing off it as the culprit.

Washington can go ahead an find a cure for bacteria, spend millions of dollars fixing up the elk...but if they don't fix the root problem then it will keep reoccurring

Kind of like a sti...take all the penacilen you want but if you keep going to that bad "environment" your gona sting the next time ya pee 

I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.

[LDennis24]

I just don't see how Glyphosate could be the cause when its used around my area and around the Mid- West 10,20,30,40.... times more often than in those area's affected now and hoof rot isn't even being found in these area's. Maybe the bacteria's not as prevelant here but I dunno... 

[pianoman9701]

I just don't see how Glyphosate could be the cause when its used around my area and around the Mid- West 10,20,30,40.... times more often than in those area's affected now and hoof rot isn't even being found in these area's. Maybe the bacteria's not as prevelant here but I dunno... 

The answer to your question is Moisture, which will allow the bacteria to stick around long enough to hitch a ride. Occurrences of hoof disease are happening on the wet side in both OR and WA. And, we're talking about glyphosate and/or Atrazine.

[Coastal_native]

I have never disagreed that overall habitat and environmental changes might be at the root of this problem (Go read my comments about a big part of the problem in the Lolo Zone elk herd declines if you don't think I am fully aware of the importance of habitat  ).  If spraying has fundamentally changed the habitat perhaps it plays a role in the cycle of treponeme bacteria and hoof rot.     But that is an entirely different issue than the folks screaming that WDFW needs to test elk tissue/blood for glyphosate and atrazine.  WDFW has done a lot of necropsies, inspections, tissue evaluations, paying special attention to important filtering organs and there has been no indication of toxicity which would warrant further analysis of any tissue.  When they have looked at liver, kidney etc. tissue under the microscope absolutely no evidence of deformities in those cells...look perfectly healthy...which would indicate that whatever chemicals they are being exposed to...they are not at levels that result in a toxicity problem.

So, I think we agree for the most part.  Its not toxicity, so there is no need to do detailed chemical analyses which are not as simple as some probably think...it would be a waste of time and money.  However, that does not mean that we should not evaluate how land management practices might effect elk habitat.  More specifically, we ought to investigate this treponeme bacteria to better understand what conditions and habitat are favorable to it infecting elk.  I am happy to see more and more folks wanting to look at habitat issues     

I tend to agree with this.  There's got to be a way of having this discussion about forest practices (including the use of herbicides) outside of the context of the hoof rot discussion.

[pianoman9701]

I have never disagreed that overall habitat and environmental changes might be at the root of this problem (Go read my comments about a big part of the problem in the Lolo Zone elk herd declines if you don't think I am fully aware of the importance of habitat  ).  If spraying has fundamentally changed the habitat perhaps it plays a role in the cycle of treponeme bacteria and hoof rot.     But that is an entirely different issue than the folks screaming that WDFW needs to test elk tissue/blood for glyphosate and atrazine.  WDFW has done a lot of necropsies, inspections, tissue evaluations, paying special attention to important filtering organs and there has been no indication of toxicity which would warrant further analysis of any tissue.  When they have looked at liver, kidney etc. tissue under the microscope absolutely no evidence of deformities in those cells...look perfectly healthy...which would indicate that whatever chemicals they are being exposed to...they are not at levels that result in a toxicity problem.

So, I think we agree for the most part.  Its not toxicity, so there is no need to do detailed chemical analyses which are not as simple as some probably think...it would be a waste of time and money.  However, that does not mean that we should not evaluate how land management practices might effect elk habitat.  More specifically, we ought to investigate this treponeme bacteria to better understand what conditions and habitat are favorable to it infecting elk.  I am happy to see more and more folks wanting to look at habitat issues     

I tend to agree with this.  There's got to be a way of having this discussion about forest practices (including the use of herbicides) outside of the context of the hoof rot discussion.

One way to do that, Coastal, would be to rule it out as a cause of hoof disease. Otherwise, the conjecture will continue until something gives.

[idahohuntr]

I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.

It has been ruled out.  Your personal decision to ignore the evidence does not constititute a failure on behalf of WDFW to identify or rule out the proximate cause of hoof rot.   

[pianoman9701]

I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.

It has been ruled out.  Your personal decision to ignore the evidence does not constititute a failure on behalf of WDFW to identify or rule out the proximate cause of hoof rot.   

Continue to lie if you want, but I was told directly by Dr. Jonker that it's never been tested for. You have less credibility every time you lie to try and support the shoddy work on this problem.

[idahohuntr]

Because other evidence rules it out and eliminates need for tests. Go read the Bugle article again.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I have a theory,
The spraying has eliminated the natural growth that occurs in a forest opening.
This not only greatly reduced the forage base that has the result of concentrating animals in smaller areas, but decreased the root systems that keeps water in the higher elevations.
One thing that is very unique about SW Washington soils is the amount of ash from StHelens.
As this fine (dust) gets washed into the lower elevations it also collects in moist swamp land, fields, etc...
Now by itself, it is probably not harmful, yet it might just be the catalyst that holds the bacteria in concentrated amounts.
By forcing the animals into the lowlands by reducing forage, they are exposed to the bacteria, and transmit it to each other.

 

I don't know what causes it, but I do know that the habitat is suffering.  Big differences can be seen by just crossing from private timber land into State land.  ,

[pianoman9701]

Truth

[idahohuntr]

I have a theory,
The spraying has eliminated the natural growth that occurs in a forest opening.
This not only greatly reduced the forage base that has the result of concentrating animals in smaller areas, but decreased the root systems that keeps water in the higher elevations.
One thing that is very unique about SW Washington soils is the amount of ash from StHelens.
As this fine (dust) gets washed into the lower elevations it also collects in moist swamp land, fields, etc...
Now by itself, it is probably not harmful, yet it might just be the catalyst that holds the bacteria in concentrated amounts.
By forcing the animals into the lowlands by reducing forage, they are exposed to the bacteria, and transmit it to each other.

 

I don't know what causes it, but I do know that the habitat is suffering.  Big differences can be seen by just crossing from private timber land into State land.  ,

I could definitely see a link between habitat and hoof disease such as what you suggest, which has herbicides as the root cause or a significant link.  And as Coastal pointed out, even if there isn't a link does not mean we shouldn't take a hard look at how herbicide practices may be affecting our wildlife and their habitat.

Its the silly calls for "testing" for herbicides as the direct cause of hoof rot that I find useless, distracting and also neglectful of mountains of existing evidence.

[JimmyHoffa]

I saw that the Oregon legislature is about to take a look at herbicides/buffer zones and riparian management zones.  For the herbicide portion I think it was concerned with spraying within 300 feet of surface water (streams/creeks) or groundwater for humans (where wells are drilled).  Read it quickly, so there might have been some other things too.

[CAMPMEAT]

Wonder Bread went out of business years ago...............for the legislator who didn't know.